Ep 258 – We Messed Up…Setting the Record Straight

In this episode, Giacomo and Sawyer dive into the biggest coaching mistakes they’ve made throughout their careers and how their perspectives on coaching have evolved over time.

The conversation explores everything from rigid programming and poor communication to sustainability, emotional awareness, and the importance of building genuine client relationships. They discuss why coaching is far more than just training plans and macros, how empathy changes the coaching process, and why individualized support matters more than forcing clients into a one-size-fits-all system.

They also reflect on early coaching experiences, mistakes made during the “IIFYM era,” balancing accountability with compassion, and why helping clients better understand themselves is one of the most valuable parts of the coaching process.

This episode is a candid behind-the-scenes look at what good coaching actually looks like — and how both coaches and clients grow through the process together.

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TRANSCRIPT

Giacomo (00:00)
who’s gonna introduce I’ll do it. Welcome back. This is how we start things. Welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Giacomo.

Sawyer (00:01)
It’s a war of attrition.

and I’m Sawyer.

Giacomo (00:10)
and welcome to the show.

Sawyer (00:10)
Alright, so I know that if I jump into the topic right away, you’re going to bite my head off. So how have you been, my man? Let’s start it off nice and easy.

Giacomo (00:18)
I woke up with a stiff neck.

Sawyer (00:21)
was it how you slept or how you trained?

Giacomo (00:23)
I feel like it’s because I traveled and when I travel it’s hard on my body. And no matter how good I am about sleep and stress management and not doing anything stupid, I feel like travel just messes with my body sometimes, but it’s okay.

Sawyer (00:26)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I’ll say I I felt that I was just explaining to you off air, like how we traveled, changed countries just recently last week. And I’m still coming back from that. Like, I don’t know how people travel countries all the time, because man, it knocked me out. I guess a big part of that was just that we have our dog with us. So that was a big deal.

Giacomo (00:57)
I’m not hearing this Sawyer. You’ve lived in your, you were mobile with your van hookup and everything.

Sawyer (01:02)
I know, dude,

the van was actually pretty comfortable. mean, think about it this way. You have your kitchen with all your food and your bed with you everywhere you go, right? So granted temperature differences and, you know, time changes and stuff. Cool. But like, you can’t actually go all that far in one day in a van. And the other thing is like, if you have all your stuff with you, like you have your pillow and your food, that’s, that solves a lot of the discomfort right there.

In my opinion, when you’re like on somebody else’s terms and food and you know what I mean? Like that changes way more stuff. Mattresses, you know what mean? So yeah, but a lot of times for me, it’s how I train that can throw me off a little bit. Like sometimes I can get a little too aggressive with certain reps and then afterwards I’ll be like, yeah, that doesn’t feel good. So I have a tendency to push it a little bit too much in the gym and

Ben’s constantly having to tell me like, don’t, don’t go for that rep. If you have to use like all the leg drive and all that stuff. that’s why I asked you, was like, do you think it’s how you train or how you slip? So yeah.

Giacomo (02:07)
I have mixed feelings about training when I travel and the work is really intense. As long as I’m training frequently enough, as much as I enjoy the act of training when I travel, because it keeps me grounded, I also feel like I try to make the best decisions possible for my body. So if I could get enough training volume in before and after I travel, and it’s a short amount of time, then I will. If I can’t, then I’ll train when I travel. And I don’t know that that’s necessarily ideal.

Sawyer (02:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (02:33)
But I always enjoy it. It’s again, that’s that routine when you travel, the things that keep you grounded that you love to do, even if you probably shouldn’t.

Sawyer (02:33)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I know I

hate missing travel I training too while I’m traveling, think it’s good. mean, one thing that like the longer you’re in this fitness world or whatever, like you, the more you trust, you’re going to come back to it. I think I used to be like, ah, if I don’t keep the momentum going, I’m going to fall off. And then like, I don’t really have that panic anymore because I’m like, know I’m going to get back to it when I feel like I can. So that’s nice at least,

still kind of sucks to be off program. Anyways, so before we dive into the main topic, I do want to talk a little bit more because you said on a meeting the other day that you’ve been getting more sleep lately and I was like, good for you, man. So how have you been doing with that? How have you been actually making that a reality? Because I know that you’re someone who likes to keep busy and just has no choice but to keep busy most of the time. How are you getting more sleep, man? Tell me about that a little bit.

Giacomo (03:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, there are two things that get in the way of my sleep. Three, I should say. The first thing is wanting to spend time with Dani when I decompress and that half an hour can turn into three and a half hours of nothingness where I have no business being awake, but I’m awake anyway. And we both know that.

The second thing that gets in my way is that I want to spend more time being a potato. Even though it’s doing me no good and I’m making bad choices and decisions, it’s time awake, not working and not in my normal routine and just doing nothing, completely mindless stuff. But again, it’s also a period of time where I make bad choices.

Sawyer (04:13)
I think.

Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s tricky. I find that if I don’t have a lot of downtime in the day, then yeah, I will find myself like making space where I shouldn’t for more downtime. So I think with that knowledge, I’m trying to just shrink the number of things I try to do today, because if I bite off more than I can chew, even if I get all that done, I might be, you know, playing video games longer than I should or something like that. You know what I mean? So I wouldn’t necessarily like.

I don’t know, I almost want to categorize it as a need now for downtime. It’s almost like a, I need sleep, food, hang out with my significant other, downtime. That’s one of those things that I try to plan for now. So don’t know if that’s something that you’re working on, working into your day, or if you’re just like, I’m trying to limit Is that what you’re trying to go for? Is just limiting it more? What?

Giacomo (05:05)
leading with sleep. And then the other thing I’m thinking about is the idea that I like to be awake more than I’m asleep because it means that I’m alert, awake, and have more time to live. And that’s a hard one. We were talking with my mom, Dani, my mom and I, and she was like, that, that’s it. And I felt like it was like that for her too. And maybe for my mom too, it’s kind of like, if you could be awake or asleep with the minutes in the life that you do have, which one are you gonna choose?

Sawyer (05:18)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Right, because you’re trying to live your life to the fullest kind of thing. I see.

Giacomo (05:31)
So, but I don’t know that I’m necessarily trying to be formulaic about what I do or like plan or plot anything out to make up for the fact that I’m sleeping more. I’m just sleeping more and I’m gonna figure it out as I go. It’s more like that.

Sawyer (05:39)
Mm-hmm.

You’re just leading with that.

Yeah. that’s cool, man. I’m glad that you’re not overthinking it. You’re just like, you know what? I’m going to try giving myself more sleep and let’s see what falls into place after that. Because yeah, I know that’s what you’re excited about. I know, right? Yeah, exactly.

Giacomo (05:56)
More muscle. What’s more important than muscle, Sawyer? Nothing else matters. If your muscles are bigger, then you’ve accomplished everything you need to accomplish in life. Life has purpose and meaning

and you’re good.

Sawyer (06:06)
Dude, the funny thing is that logic still

works on me. if somebody, if I can really get convinced that something’s going to build me more muscle, I’ll be like, I’ll try it. I’m like, I’m curious about it instantly. So that even though I know that’s like, it’s not going to instantly make my life better. It’s just so hard to.

Giacomo (06:15)
You

Sawyer (06:23)
factory reset your brain from coming up as a guy who wanted to build the most muscle possible. Like I feel like I’m always going to be that at some level, you know, some, some caveman that just wants more muscle always. So kind of got to own that.

Giacomo (06:35)
Which is precisely why

you and I are on this conversation because we feel like that. And that is the only reason why you should sign up with a coach or moreover, no matter what it is that you ask for, expect, we’re just going to talk about how you can build as much muscle as possible above everything else. So if you’re not picking up what we’re putting down, these are big. We want to get into the topic of all the things that we wish we would have done differently as coaches. Right.

Sawyer (06:40)
Yeah.

Haha

Haha

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it is good to know, like, as a segue to that conversation, like, what your biases are. Because I think a lot of times when you’re somebody who loves fitness and health and all this stuff associated with it, you assume that people have the same motivations. You assume that yours are healthy. You know what I mean? Like building a bunch of muscle because there’s so much content about like, it’s metabolically active. it helps you live longer. Blah, blah, blah. But like

If everything you’re doing is dedicated to building more muscle, you’ve probably got some pretty big blind spots. Like I wasn’t doing cardio for a long time as an example, because it doesn’t help you build muscle. Why would I do it? Right. But then, you know, you think about it you’re like, well, I probably do want to have a healthy heart and I do want to live longer. And actually evidence supports that people with really good cardio live longer. So now I’m doing more of that, even though I know it’s not helping me build more muscle necessarily. But then again,

one way that Ben helped me connect those dots and use my caveman brain to help me do the cardio. He’s like, if it’s limiting your leg days specifically, you could get more out of each leg day if you had better cardio. So I was like, yeah, kinda true, huh? So sometimes it’s good to know your bias and lean into that a little bit, but also pull yourself out of it and know that not every opinion you have is…

or every knee jerk reaction you have is necessarily going to apply to everybody because not everybody’s trying to build the most muscle possible. anyway, I’m digressing a little bit, but I do think that going over our coaching mistakes is going to be valuable for lot of people like coaches and the coached alike because there’s a lot of things that I don’t think people understand are mistakes.

they just think that’s just how it is or they don’t know any better. So I mean, I’d love to get into like what you think the biggest one is and then we could go from there. Like, do you have one top of mind that’s like, cause I have a couple that I’m like really excited to talk about, but do you have one that you’re like itching to talk about?

Giacomo (08:53)
There’s no one in sight. So I don’t feel like this is fair because I have been coaching for a very long time, but it’s not even the length of time that I’ve been coaching for. It’s that I feel like way back when we started coaching, there was no system of checks and balances. It was just like the wild, wild West. And we were all kind of learning together how to coach clients remotely. So I don’t know.

Sawyer (09:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So, all right, let me

take charge then, because you’re like, we can go down so many rabbit holes. yeah, right? So the first one I thought of was a lack of individualization, right? When you have like, especially when we were first starting out in this industry, people kind of create a blueprint and then they just try to fit everybody into that box. You know what I mean? I’m sure you’ve experienced that.

Giacomo (09:19)
Go for it. We were going to, why not?

Sawyer (09:41)
and maybe did that for people at the How did out of that or see, what is the way you see out of getting people out of that, like trying to fit everybody into the same box type thing? And maybe you have some stories about it too, I don’t know.

Giacomo (09:57)
to interesting questions where I…

I don’t feel like I got caught in that trap as much in terms of how to coach people. I think that’s the, that’s, gosh.

Sawyer (10:02)
Good.

Giacomo (10:06)
When you have, when you have coaches who only want clients that are following in or want to be following in their exact footsteps, or they only want to coach the same way they’d coach themselves for their own personal goals. I honestly, if you, you stop coaching, stop personal training, go find something else to do. I don’t mean to be sound condescending or rude or I don’t mean to be mean, but like, if that’s you just don’t just, just

Sawyer (10:22)
you

Giacomo (10:31)
walk away or just find or like do a little soul searching and start to think about a different approach. I will say however though that I

Sawyer (10:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Giacomo (10:39)
I feel like it could, it could affect your ability to guide clients to what they want to do because you’re not quite sure what they’re coming to you for. And I think early on in my coaching career, I, I probably had a little bit of a harder time being a little more passive with clients and being like, well, what do you want? What kind of decision is this really what you want? I think I was much.

Sawyer (10:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (11:03)
And it’s a strength in some ways, cause you could be really good at pushing someone into something that they signed up for. But I do feel like if you don’t, if it’s not their decision and if they have other things they want to think about, you can mess, you can mess them up. Meaning like they’ll just stop working with you. Does that make sense? Put it this way. I want to do a body. So like, let’s say I’m the client. Sorry. And I come to, and I come to you you’re my coach and I say, I want to get stronger and I want to do a bodybuilding competition and I’m, and you’re the coach and you’re like,

Sawyer (11:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (11:29)
Well, they signed up for this. I need to give them what they want. I love bodybuilding because I’m a bodybuilder. So I’m just going to push them into doing it and it’s what they wanted. Now to me, that would be not a horrible way to coach, but it wouldn’t be the best way to coach them. If a better way to coach them would be, why do you want to do this? Why do you want to compete? Do you know what’s involved? Let’s go over everything.

Sawyer (11:48)
Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (11:51)
Let’s give you different scenarios. you want to be the most competitive you can be and compete in three years? Do you want to get your feet wet and jump in and do it in one year? Give them different scenarios to look at. Give them other scenarios and what ifs, whether or not they compete and let them know it’s okay. Stuff like that, as opposed to just pushing them into it.

Sawyer (11:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Right, because you’re saying is you would go in and be really active and like pushing and stuff like that and then find out later, there weren’t really in it. I should have asked more initial questions so that I could have helped them figure out which path to go down. That’s really smart. And I think, yeah, like what you said originally about like, hey, if you’re somebody who’s just trying to create little mini-mes, like you need to either reassess how you’re doing this or pick a different business because

Yeah, you’re so right, man. this is, I mean, these, this is other people’s bodies we’re dealing with, right? And if we’re just trying to, you know, copy and paste everything onto other sooner or later, probably pretty soon, you’re going to notice like people aren’t exactly like you. They don’t have the same goals. They don’t have the same And so your toolbox is going to run out and then you’re going to, you know, default to just basically people are going to feel that friction.

because you’re trying to get them to do something they don’t want to do. Like they don’t even want to want to do it, right? Like you’re talking to this language and saying, you could get to this level like this and this. And they’re like, I don’t even want that. You know what I mean? So, so then there’s just this like, why are we doing this type of thing? Cause now we’re both frustrated and don’t have the same goals. So instead you’re like, well, let’s ask more better questions.

and instead of assuming that they want this and running with it, let’s figure out what actually is the best path for them and reassess every step of the way. this going to be the thing that they want? Because they might be saying, yeah, I’m realizing I don’t really like this. instead of you being like, maybe we should reconsider, you’re just going, no, I’m just going to push It is a balance. It is a balance between being like, when do I push?

make people uncomfortable because this is something that I know is going to get them what they said they want and I deeply know that they want. letting them kind of guide sometimes and you being just a good listener. I think that’s a very good thing you said about figuring out where, you have to be a bit strategic and look into the deeper reasons why people want things.

So yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. And yeah, so basically what that means is like you individualize because you care about the person and not about the, you the high of whatever you experienced. You’re basically just not projecting your experience onto them every time, right? Which I is probably the simplest way you could put it. If you’re a coach, stop projecting your own fitness journey in every single situation.

Giacomo (14:09)
Mm-hmm.

Sawyer (14:34)
onto them, you know what I mean? It’s inevitable that you’re gonna see similarities between your journey and theirs, but to try to make it a one-to-one thing, it’s a bad idea. It’s a very bad idea. You’re gonna set you both up for disappointment. Cool, okay, so let’s move, I think we covered that one pretty thoroughly. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this next one that I wrote down, which was not changing the plan when the data indicates that it’s necessary, and vice versa.

somebody who wants you to change the plan all the time, even when it’s not necessary. this changing the plan thing, it can sometimes be tricky. Sometimes coaches will never change it, even when it’s totally obvious that it needs to change. And other times coaches will change it too often, even though the client really was getting good results and really liked how do you, what was your experience with that? Were you somebody who changed it too much, not enough, or were you kind of like good at that from the get go?

Giacomo (15:27)
That’s a very good question too, Sawyer. Let’s see. Well, I was very good. I feel like I changed, I was good at encouraging people to not change their plan too often. I definitely didn’t give into that at all. I definitely didn’t, I didn’t change plans too often to make people happy. I gave them reasoning and I helped them understand why they’re programming. But you…

Sawyer (15:28)
Thank

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (15:52)
When you give someone reasoning and you’re like, listen, I’m not going to change your programming too often because we created some neural adaptations here and that’s how you engage in progressive overload. And I want you to take these exercises far and we’ll make sure that you don’t become too adapted to these movements because we’ll give you deloads and then you’ll super compensate after the fact and you’ll get even stronger. You’ll have to work for it. we are well, and then, but then I’ll also explain, listen,

Sawyer (15:58)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (16:18)
this is how often we’re going to train and let’s talk training philosophy and let’s swap out 20 % of your exercises once every six to 12 months. Let’s give you, let’s assess what movements you do or don’t like. Chances are we’ll have to change our exercises anyway over the course of the next three to six months. Or I’ll just think about how far along they are in terms of their training age, meaning how long have they been training intelligently and how much time have they spent training? Okay, so if you’re…

Sawyer (16:33)
Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (16:44)
If you’ve been doing this for three or four years, we got to really think about specificity here and not just move things around. Or, I mean, you could keep, but while I’m doing all this, I also like throwing them a bone and being like, okay, but we’re going to change some things up right now. Cause you asked. I feel like it’s a good balance of like making someone happy and giving them a change when they ask. That’s not going to hurt their ability to progress and also giving them reasoning as far as to why I don’t want to change the programming too often. I don’t know that I struggled with that.

Sawyer (16:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well that’s good. No, that’s, I mean that’s a really common one, right? Because I you said so many good things that I want to elaborate on. Actually, I’m going to draw out because I’m like, think people, you say things as if everybody’s going to understand them because you’ve been coaching for so long, but I want to make sure we explain. No, not a bad thing. It just means it’s second nature to you. You’re good at it. But I want to make sure that people understand, you know, kind of contextualize what you just said.

Giacomo (17:12)
too too much.

Sawyer (17:37)
Yeah, think what I was thinking of when I thought of this topic was that a lot of times people get stuck in one camp or the other changing things too often to make clients happy and keep it fresh and exciting, even though you can’t really tell progressions from doing But they don’t really care because they’re like, well, this makes them happy and feels mentally stimulated at least pretty often. I’ve even heard people changing the plan every month or or even

And but then there’s the other side of things where people, coaches are like kind of stubborn and they want to just like, or they’re you know, and they, or they don’t know how to change the program to make it better for people. they say, well, this is the program that I do and it works for me. So I’m just going to give this pretty much, you know, kind of overlaps with the other program or the other problem of doing, you know, trying to make little mini me’s. But I think that like, when it comes to

actually intelligently designing a program for somebody, it has to be able to evolve because sometimes goals change and sometimes you get feedback from that program that it’s not working or that it could be working better. And so that’s kind of what you were getting at I think was when you were saying things have to make sense first. You were saying like, yeah, I will make changes but only if there’s a reason to make changes. And sometimes that reason can be just purely like,

they have a preference for one movement over another, and that’s gonna help them stick to it, and that’s a good reason to change things, sure. But in general, we should have an aversion to changing the program because it can kind of throw us off in terms of the data we collect and the feedback that we’re able to use to then make good decisions. yeah, basically trying to summarize what you said was like, there are reasons to change a program, but we shouldn’t just do it for any…

which way, like just because we feel like it one day or one week of changing things up. I think that’s really smart. Yeah.

Giacomo (19:25)
It, but

it’s the best kind of conversation you could have for someone because you get to understand their mindset and, the emotional landscape of that client. And I feel like that opens up the door to so many other conversations. And if you could earn some trust there rather than shutting them down or being like, no, we’re keeping it this way because, here’s the reason why. And you just throw them a bone and be like, I’m going to change, I’m going to change a little bit up right now. They’re like, well, no, don’t do that. I just want to get results. And I’m like, no, no.

Sawyer (19:32)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (19:53)
This is good. Let’s find, let’s make sure that you’re, you’re not getting bored of your training. Let’s understand why, what your reasoning is. Let’s find out what, like how your personality can work for you or against you. And let’s talk about other things. Like it should be a conversation opener as well.

Sawyer (19:57)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You’re so right. You’re so right. You’re so

right. Especially because if you just change things or you just cave to them right away and you say, yeah, you’re right. We’ll change things. But you don’t give any explanation as to why that could be beneficial. And then on the other side of things, you don’t change things and you don’t give any explanation.

What you’re doing is you’re creating a reliance on you as like an authority figure. You’re kind of reinforcing this hierarchy that a lot of people do come into a coaching relationship with wherein they don’t get a say and you’re the ultimate final say on everything. But if you actually explain things to people and they start to understand the reasoning for things, all of a sudden you’re leveling the playing field, creating more trust and reciprocity and agency. They feel like they know why things should change or they shouldn’t change. And so they don’t need you as much.

to help make those decisions in the future. So I think what you’re saying is that we’re trying to empower people and deepen connection by explaining things instead of just being like the boss, you Which I think is beautiful because yeah, there’s so many, so many, so many benefits to just being like a human and being like, and I always tell people this, look, I’m the coaching fitness expert, right?

I put it in quotations because I’m not trying to be lord over anybody, but I do know a lot about fitness, right? And they know a lot about themselves. So if I can learn about you and you can learn about fitness and we get closer together, by the end of this time together, we’re both going to know a lot about both and we’re going to be able to marry the two. You’re going to be a more fit person because you’re going to know about these concepts and about yourself better. You know what I mean? So pretty cool.

Giacomo (21:42)
Absolutely. 100

% is one thing is the difference between sharing information and being in it with somebody where they’re literally learning because the two of you are involved in the process together and then you get a chance to learn about them. It’s more than information. It’s how can it, you apply that information to their life with them. And then before you know it, it’s been a year later and they, I don’t want to say they know as much as you know, because that’s

Sawyer (21:49)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Giacomo (22:09)
But like they…

Sawyer (22:10)
least when it comes to themselves, they know a lot, right? They might not be able to universally coach everybody now, but they can coach themselves better because they understand themselves in the context of the fitness. I see what saying.

Giacomo (22:12)
They actually, yes.

Yes.

And they know even more about themselves than you know about them. And that’s the real transfer of knowledge and information, if you will. That’s what they got from having the coach. You’re in it with them.

Sawyer (22:26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right, yeah.

I think that’s a beautiful thing. When somebody starts feeling like they don’t need me as much, they’re still, they’re always so appreciative of that fact. They’re like, I don’t need you and I feel weird about that, but like, this is really cool because I don’t feel scared to leave you. I feel like I can do this. I feel like I know how to change things when they need to change and I know when to stick to things when I need to stick to things. And that’s ultimately my goal is to have them feel like they’ve developed their own confidence.

and that requires explaining things enough times. I sometimes feel like I’m just repeating myself so much, but they’re like, they will often say to me, I can hear you in my head saying, hey, we don’t change things until this, this, and this, and hey, I’m looking for this, this, and that before you go ahead and give up on this one. So it’s really helpful to repeat things, because that’s just a part of teaching and really getting it into people’s psyche.

that they can trust these kind of guidelines that we’ve created for Side note, real quick, I was thinking like, you know, a lot of people I think are afraid of like AI and how crazy it’s getting, but I just don’t think there’s any replacement for the human connection aspect of a lot of these industries, like coaching being one of because it is so reliant on interpersonal connection and the feedback of another human being.

Giacomo (23:32)
Yeah.

Sawyer (23:52)
who is feel this way like validating their feelings and giving them context to everything. So just a little aside. I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that. You do?

Giacomo (24:00)
Well, I disagree with you wholly. I want a robot to pander to me and

give me information that’s 60 % right and miss some context and just literally mirror my emotions in a robotic like way. I want AI to think for me. That’s what I know. God, it’s awful. The amount of people that have been duped into having full blown relationships with AI as if, and just

Sawyer (24:09)
Yeah.

Hahaha.

I want, yeah right.

Hmm.

Giacomo (24:26)
It’s terrible, the whole thing is…

Sawyer (24:26)
That’s scary. It’s a lot like somebody who grows up rich and they’re surrounded by yes men, they don’t know truth from fiction because everybody’s kissing their ass, right? And they’re just like, this is, I don’t know what reality, I don’t know what real friendship looks like because they’ve been able to buy it. you know, I kind of do feel bad for those people because they don’t know who to trust, you know?

And granted, we have a financial incentive as coaches, but at the same time, we’re not in this for the money because if we we’d be making a lot more of it. Then again, there are coaching companies, I won’t name names, but who tried to turn it into a min-max kind of thing. And hopefully these conversations we’re having on podcasts will help people steer away from those kinds of Fingers crossed, we’ll

But this leads me to my next point, the next thing I wanted to go over with you, which is lack of That is a big one for us coaches is when communication breaks what do we have at that point as coaches, right? So that’s one we talk about a lot, you know, in just in our meetings and stuff. But in terms of like coaching mistakes in that context, do you have any to talk about, like just in the topic of communication with clients?

Giacomo (25:39)
When we first started coaching, the general narrative in the coaching industry was that it was a client’s responsibility to check in. If they didn’t, they were taking up a space with you and too bad, so sad. And it’s not your responsibility to chase them down. There was a lot of that in the fitness industry. It was very pervasive. was like the tough love kind of approach. And while I understand, look, if you’re a client, you need to take responsibility. You need to check in, you need to show up. can’t avoid, you can’t.

Sawyer (25:46)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (26:06)
your coach can’t take full responsibility for that. But that being said, as a coach, you can take at least half the responsibility. It’s really easy to avoid something when you’re not doing what you should be doing, what you want to be doing. And no one’s perfect. And when you’re not a hundred percent or when you’re not even, or when you’re at your worst self for a week or a couple of months, the

what you’re naturally gonna wanna do is avoid the conversation, especially because the coach represents what you want and they know you and it’s another person that you have to be accountable to. And I feel like as a coach, if you don’t have enough empathy for that and you don’t know how to continue to find ways to keep the door open, then that’s on you. And I think in my earlier years, I think it was just a lack of understanding.

Sawyer (26:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hmm.

Giacomo (26:53)
Yeah, fortunately

the fitness industry and the coaching lens, it’s not like that anymore, but just I bet there are still coaches out there like that. We’re not like that at all. I don’t think that level of accountability helps anybody. think that level of, think inflicting that amount, kind of, that type of accountability on a client, I think it actually hurts them. I think it actively hurts them.

Sawyer (27:01)
Yeah. Yeah, I really like how you said that. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I like that. I really like how you said that because two to tango kind of thing. But at the same if you’re to be flexible for somebody struggled, for instance, you know, lot of, we’re doing video check-ins most of the time, right?

But there’s a lot of times where people will say, I just did not have the energy to set this up and do the video thing. I felt like it was really hard for me this week. So I just wrote something. I’m like, all right, cool. I appreciate you reaching out to me anyway. having some form of communication, like some kind of way to keep the ball I think there’s so many ways that we could be more accommodating to help people keep that door open, feel more like a friend that…

accommodating to them, is somebody who’s there for them however they need you to be there for them in that moment. We’re not exactly their friend, but at the same time, the more that we feel like somebody they can open up to and that will go out of their way to help them I think is good. So yeah, I think I agree with you. It’s just like, it’s a the more that you both…

kind of give and take and push and pull a little bit, the more trust that’s formed and the easier that communication So I like that you’re like, this is where the industry started and we moved away from it because you just noticed. I think for one thing, life humbles us all, right? You’ve been through stuff where you didn’t want to communicate with your coach. You’ve been through stuff where your communication broke down with everybody for a So you’re thinking those situations and thinking, huh, maybe it’s not reasonable to expect my to always check in.

and be excited about it. But then also realizing there’s just better ways to do things than where we started, right? And evolving away from things, practices, and trying to better practices, more nuance and more context practices, I think, is a really healthy practice to always be keeping an eye on. Yeah.

Giacomo (29:06)
Yeah. Finding ways to reach your clients when they’re unable to show up for themselves is a very, is an art and it’s a dance. And honestly, I think it’s way more than half of the job. I really do. Don’t get me wrong. You have clients that are unfailing and will show up and do all the work and

Sawyer (29:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Giacomo (29:26)
show up no matter what and then you have to think about how to like pick the conversation out of them if they don’t want to talk about what’s what’s not going well which most people don’t but I would say 60 plus maybe even 75 percent or more of people are the kind of people that you want to create a supportive space for them to make sure that they’re they know that they can show up with you it’s it’s it’s more than half the job well more than half the job

Sawyer (29:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, just encouraging people to be honest trust that you’re not going to freak out on them or make them feel like bad people. think that’s another thing that the coaching industry has, just fitness industry in general, needs to work on its image with because we have this kind of reputation of like drill sergeant type, you know, in

when it really should be way more kind, should be way more empathetic. And I think I hope that here at Vegan Proteins we’re starting to shift that narrative because you work with enough people who so grateful for your empathy and your ability to accommodate them that you start to feel wow, I feel really good that I was able to do that. But you’re also like, wait, what were their experiences like before coming here? Were they getting…

yelled at or belittled a lot, you know, like that makes me so sad that that’s, that’s, you know, the standard in a lot of cases. So yeah, I really do hope we can continue to change that in, our industry. Okay. So last issue I have written down and we can talk about whatever you want to talk about, but I’m just on a roll here. So thank you for letting me do it.

Giacomo (30:55)
Go for it.

Sawyer (30:59)
⁓ which is a lack of focus on sustainability. And I think this one’s gonna be really good for you because I know you are just a workhorse and that is something that like you really like to be active. You really like to be productive. And so I know that has broken you down more than a few times in terms of like injuries and overwhelm and you know, all that

And I’m sure that it’s bled into your coaching because you can’t like, just divorce your personality from the habits that you have with coaching. So I’m curious, like where you started with that being somebody who is so like type a go getter to someone who is now more empathetic and nuanced with how he coaches, like how have you taken that sustainability conversation from like point a to point B now, or maybe it’s point Z now. I don’t know how far you’ve come with that, but like.

What’s your sustainability journey in terms of your personal one and then your coaching one?

Giacomo (31:56)
I think that it can get really tricky as a coach because a client comes to you because they’re looking for something. They’re looking for results. And when you’ve done your job as a coaching company and you’ve illustrated that they’re coming to you for what they want, they’re not coming to you for what you do and what you look like. Some people are inspired by that and that’s great, but like a good, good coaching company will be like, look,

We all we care about is you and what you want and where you’re at. We’re not the poster boy for what you’re coming here for. You might’ve been attracted to us for some particular reason because maybe one of us is a bikini athlete, maybe one of us knows how to like master the art of being able to make their body look.

Sawyer (32:25)
Mm-hmm.

Giacomo (32:42)
like whatever they want it to look like, ⁓ but, then they’re truly comfortable in their own skin, your goal could have nothing to do with that whatsoever. want, whatever it is that your goal is, whatever it is that you came here for, we’re here for what you came here for, right? Where am I going with this? I’m losing my train of thought here, Sawyer. Thank you. Gosh, why am I losing my train of thought? Well,

Sawyer (32:42)
Thanks.

Mm-hmm.

Sustainability. Sustainability, right? Yeah.

It’s okay.

Giacomo (33:08)
I got it. got it. Here we are. Thank you for bringing me back, dude. So that being said, once you’re able to get that off the table and they know, they’re bought and sold, they’re like, okay, okay, cool. You just want what I want and you’re here for me.

Sawyer (33:10)
Okay.

Giacomo (33:22)
When you’re working with a coach, what’s the number one reason why they’re working with you? It’s not the programming. It’s the relationship. And relationships are tricky. They’re messy. You don’t get to control a relationship. You exist within it. Right? So yes, you’re a professional. Yes, you know how to guide them. Uh, yes, you have autonomy. However, it is in fact a relationship and there are parts of you that you can’t divorce.

from that relationship, you’re getting in it with them. And you have to constantly think about what parts of you they’re tapping into that you don’t want them to tap into. And you don’t want to project that onto the relationship. And then you have to think of constructive ways. I hope I’m not being too unclear about this. You have to make sure to guide them in the right direction. to your point, because you’re using me as an example, right? And I’m, okay, so I’m thinking of myself as a coach versus my own personal path. So you mentioned how I…

Sawyer (34:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Giacomo (34:15)
a workhorse, I like to be active in this and that. And some part of them feels, some part of them is tapping into that side of me and they’re doing more than they should, or they’re resenting themselves because they’re not active enough. And now I have to take accountability here because I’m in the relationship with them and also pivot them and be like, look, this is, this is where you’re at. You’re doing, you’re doing exactly what you need to be doing. What do you want to do? This is what, this is what we’re going to do to get you there.

Sawyer (34:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah.

I get what you’re saying.

I

see what you’re saying. let me, let me like, yeah, yeah, let me get, let me repeat it. So see if I’m getting it correctly. So you’re saying like every time you go into a coaching relationship, like you bring your own emotional baggage and your personality with you. And so you’re worried about like projecting that onto other people because they might not want exactly what you want. And also, even if you’re not saying, Hey, you have to do this thing.

Giacomo (34:44)
Do you see what I’m saying?

Sure.

Of course.

Sawyer (35:07)
you being too visible, you showing, hey, this is what I’m doing now, this is what I’m doing now, this is how I do this. If you show yourself too visibly like that, they will inevitably compare themselves to you and say, that’s how I should be, even if they don’t really want those things. So I get what you’re saying. You’re saying, I’m not trying to put myself on a pedestal or like show myself too much because it’s really about them and we should be centering the relationship around them because what matters is that they’re getting closer to their goals every day.

and that they don’t feel pressured to be anybody they’re actually Which I think is really smart because if they are trying to be somebody they’re not, like if I try to do your routine, I probably would not be that happy. Not because you’re crazy or anything, but because we’re just different people and you’re a business owner and I’m employee of that business. So it’s not like the same level of responsibility, the same level of commitment.

And that just is how it is. I mean, I had run my own business before coming here and realized at a certain point, actually, I don’t want to do that. Like I actually would rather join a team and be a part of a team instead of being like leading my so realizing some stuff about yourself and then holding that space for yourself, being different from other people and having people in your team who are like pushing you to be like yourself, I think is really important. And that’s kind what you’re saying is that like

If we come into this relationship not aware that people are somewhat looking up to us because we’re able to figure out this fitness thing, we could leverage it to just make little copies of us and they would be like, wow, I’m really doing it, but I don’t feel like me. And that would be a problem for sustainability, we were saying, right? yeah, man, that’s really cool how you went there with it because I don’t even think sometimes about how people are looking at me. I’m just always focused on them.

Giacomo (36:42)
That’s it.

Sawyer (36:51)
and I redirect the conversation to instinctively, I do feel like sometimes questions about me, but I’m yeah, that doesn’t really matter. What I want, like I was talking about how we’re talking about our caveman brains and how we always wanna build more muscle, doesn’t necessarily make everybody. And also the ways that we’ve built our lives around fitness, because we have to a large probably would not

for a lot of people who are busy working adults with kids and all kinds of stuff, you know what I mean? So being ignorant to that and being like, you wanna be like me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, here you go. All this would eventually probably feel But if they wanna get there and they keep going down that path and they eventually do, cool. I don’t think it’s something we should push for, is what you’re saying. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, so yeah, ultimately it really comes down to what do you feel like you could indefinitely? And sometimes I frame it as like, hey, if we get to a point where the program feels like something you’d rather do than not do, like you go on vacation, like we were talking about at beginning, you go on vacation and you miss what you usually do, and that was getting you closer to your goals, guess what? You’ve won the sustainability game because you actually like at the point where you’re like, this feels better.

to do than to not do. It doesn’t feel like a program, it feels like me. And that’s like perfection. That’s like nirvana. That’s sustainability nirvana when you get to that point. And that looks different for everybody, you know what I mean? So I think you’re right to be cautious not to hold up yourself as an example, is be like, this is what everybody should be striving for. Look at my list of to-dos every day. And I think people who are

feeling like they’re still discovering themselves as fit people in fitness, like would be tempted to just, like we like having heroes, right? We like having paragons of the lifestyle. And so if they look up to you in some way and they come to you for coaching, you’re aware of that. You’re saying, thank you for admiring me, but this isn’t about me. This is about creating your best life. Yeah. That’s cool, man.

Giacomo (38:50)
Very well said.

Yeah.

Sawyer (38:51)
But

you have to have not a big ego to do that. So respect you for being able to be like, that’s really nice, feels good on my ego, but it’s very validating. But you’re not me, and if you try to be, you’re gonna fall short and feel bad. And that’s not because I’m better than you, it’s just because I’m different than you. So that’s beautiful, man.

Anyways, alright, I feel like I can get off my soap box now. I feel like I was just conceptualizing. You do speak at a very high level, so I’m trying to bring it to people that are not in this world as and also just understand it for myself. it’s cool getting to know you and how long you’ve been doing this, and then seeing myself as a younger coach. Not that much younger, but a little bit younger

having the same or similar experiences and learning kind of similar lessons.

Giacomo (39:41)
Totally. Yeah. I keep going back to this same stupid recurring thought of what I did with the second person that I coached.

Sawyer (39:42)
Yeah. So that, well.

⁓ I can’t wait to hear it. Yeah, we gotta get into some dumb stories, right? That’s what people listen to this episode for sure.

Giacomo (39:56)
The second

client that I had ever coached in my life is, ⁓ we were all up into IIFYM back in the day. Paul, I am so sorry, dude. I am so sorry for what I did to you. ⁓

Sawyer (40:03)
Mm-hmm.

god, you gotta tell

me, stop teasing. What’d you do to him?

Giacomo (40:12)
He was all into Whole Foods and I’m like, you’re obsessed with Whole Foods. let’s just, you just, we gotta get you like, he was very, in hindsight, what I would have done with him is I would have gotten him out of his type A detailed kind of way, because he was in his own way and he was very rigid with like a bro diet and bro meals and he was eating the same thing every single day. And.

Sawyer (40:14)
Uhhh…

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I see. But you pushed on the junk

food side of it too hard is what you’re saying. Yeah.

Giacomo (40:35)
And I got him

to like, but maybe, but maybe in hindsight, it was a good thing because maybe, because I can’t believe I’m saying that right now. Talk about like protecting your own, your own ass. Cause we’ll think about it. Like if, someone’s eating, if someone’s eating vegan chicken and sweet potato and broccoli twice a day and they’re eating oatmeal and having protein shakes every day and nothing else. Do you think they can be eating like that 15 years from now? No.

Sawyer (40:39)
Mm-hmm.

Tell me what specifically happened to make you feel this bad.

Giacomo (41:00)
Was it right of me to introduce French fries and burgers and Boca burgers because it was in the IIFIM period, even though you weren’t asking for it when they could have ate that way, probably not. Not in the middle of a prep. I still feel guilty about that because they were like, I want to eat healthier food. I’m like, mix it up. can’t eat like this forever. But it was, was in my primitive years of coaching and I was just trying to like, trying to find ways to get people.

to be a little more flexible with their eating habits. So you could like discuss the idea of being flexible and you could encourage the idea of flexible being like all options are on the table. Like what I would do with somebody right now without saying you need to eat this way or you’re eating too, you’re eating too many of the same meals every single day and you’re gonna break.

Sawyer (41:27)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think what you’re saying is if somebody is being too rigid, too dogmatic about something, it’s usually because they have a fear of deviation. They have some kind of fear of like, if I don’t eat inside these lines, if I don’t train this specific way, I’m not going to get my results and then I’m going to break and whatever. And so it turns into like a shame game. It turns into like a unsustainable thing because they can’t.

actually do those things forever, but they’re convinced that that’s the only way to make progress, that the only way to be on the straight and narrow. So you gotta just experience, or help them experience new things, and then have good results still to prove to their nervous system, like, hey, you’re okay. If you stick to these guidelines instead of these guidelines, you’re gonna be all right. So it’s not an all or nothing type of thing. And that is a tricky conversation to navigate because you don’t want to…

set somebody off the deep end by telling them, everything you think is wrong. You know what I mean? You don’t want to hit them in the face with that. a lot of times there are nuggets of truth in what they’re saying. Like, I want to eat more whole foods. Awesome. That’s great. eating the same whole foods only, a little bit of oversight because you’re going to be missing all kinds of nutrients and then all kinds of psychological variety that you’re going to crave eventually.

Yeah, that makes sense that you would be like, you’d feel pulled to encourage them out of their shell. But at the same time, you know, pushing them right into burgers and french fries might’ve been like a little, a little extreme. who knows? Maybe we should, maybe you should follow up with that guy. Cause you obviously have a lot of guilt. You should go hit him up, see how he’s doing now. Let’s give yourself that, that way you know how hard to be on yourself. If he’s like total mess that you could, you could take some of the responsibility for that. I’m sure he’s doing fine. ⁓

Giacomo (43:29)
Yeah, me too, actually.

Hopefully.

Sawyer (43:31)
Yeah, I guess

if I’m going to share a story ⁓ of a coaching situation. Okay, so this is, I don’t feel as bad about this because I was like in high school. and you know, the funny thing is when I think back to like how early I started coaching, it was like in high school, people would be like, I’d be talking about fitness or whatever. And people would be like, ⁓ I want to work out whatever. And so I’d show them my parents home gym and we’d work out. Anyway, I had this one guy, I felt

Giacomo (43:35)
Go for it.

Sawyer (44:00)
so bad. I had him do a workout that I would never do. So what was I doing? Trying to impress him or something? I don’t know. Anyway, I had him like squatting and then like running in between squatting like a psychopath and he ended up throwing up. Yeah. And it was like, why did I do that? That didn’t feel good. You know what I mean? So I had this experience, I think, where I thought I was going to feel like

First of all, wasn’t trying to make him throw up, but I was trying to give him a good workout, right? I was trying to make him feel like, wow, this guy really pushes people and blah, Way had him overdo it. And, you know, some people won’t even tell you when they’re hurting. So if I had known how hard that was, I would have told him, hey, pull back. But I didn’t know anything about programming or regulating intensity. So the guy ended up throwing up. I felt like a total asshole.

and I never made anybody throw up again, but that was a bad mistake on my part for sure.

Giacomo (44:57)
Okay, got it. So if you’re still listening and you want to come to hire a coach of vegan proteins who is going to make you eat burgers and fries and push you so hard to throw up, but you still get the body that you want, then come on in and work with us. We’re your team.

Sawyer (45:02)
Yeah, yeah. my God.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. How much

do you hate yourself is basically what we’re asking. No, I mean, it was, you know, it’s, you know, we pick early stories because those are the most egregious examples and we made smaller and smaller mistakes as we went presumptively, but still make mistakes. Of course, sometimes it’s hard to know when to push and when to pull like we were talking about. But ultimately I get a better intuition.

Giacomo (45:19)
gosh.

Sawyer (45:38)
you go with coaching. You know when to follow your gut a little bit more it feels good to have developed that like kind of sixth sense of like this is I think what somebody needs instead of projecting your experience or trying to prove yourself or whatever you’re just kind of paying attention to what do they need in this moment. Like how can I make their experience elevating? How can I how can I uplift them with this

this trial and error, you know, how can I help them see the thing that’s gonna bring them to the next level? It’s a hard conversation to be constantly having in your brain, but it’s part of what makes the job so fulfilling, is that there’s a puzzle and you have to figure it out, and then once you do, it clicks for them and they’re like, I got to the next level, hooray, and you’re like, you both celebrate together? Beautiful thing, man, beautiful thing. I think I’m addicted to it, honestly.

Giacomo (46:28)
It’s good.

Sawyer (46:29)
Yeah man, I think I said all I wanted to say. Hopefully people got a fun little story out of it at the end too, and they’re not too scared of us, but is there anything else you wanted to add?

Giacomo (46:31)
I so too.

No, I think that’s pretty much it. It’s not a perfect science. It is very much so an art. That being said, there is evidence-based programming principles that work, but coaching is so much more than that. And if you just, if you’re just there for the programming to tell someone what to do, then you’re not a coach. You might as well just ask AI to spit out something for that person because that’s, that’s not what it is. But, ⁓ but yeah, I think the relationship is, is where it’s at.

Sawyer (46:47)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Giacomo (47:04)
And that’s something that you just get better and better with over time, but it has to start from caring about that person and centering the coaching around that person. you got, it’s like, no matter what they come to when they say they want, and no matter what you think you want for them, you both find out over time by having a nice open conversation and nice open relationship around the idea that that’s why the two of you signed on as coaching client. And that’s where it’s going to go.

Sawyer (47:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great way to summarize it. It is like an exploratory journey. A lot of times people realize they didn’t, they don’t actually want what they said they wanted at the beginning. And we realize that halfway through and then we change the plan because it feels better and they feel like they are getting permission from somebody who knows fitness be themselves and to aim for what they actually care about. really cool to be able to give that to

Giacomo (47:31)
And that’s what we do here pretty much.

Sawyer (47:57)
you know, members of the society who feel kind of pushed and pulled in all kinds of ways by society to be a certain way, to look a certain way to others. It feels really healing and like I get to be ⁓ a kind of a guide to that healing where I’ve figured something out about our society, about our, you know, physical appearances, and I can help people figure that out for themselves and feel more empowered and feel more confident about who they are.

not trying to make them, if you get this ripped you’ll be this confident, because that’s not how it works. So anyway, I could go on forever about this. Obviously this is a topic we’re both very passionate about, but hopefully you guys get the impression that we’re not going to treat you like just a number. And appreciate you guys as individuals and thanks for listening. you guys have any topics you want us to talk about, because I’m always curious to hear what you guys want to know about,

What about the coaching process? Intrigues you, scares you, makes you feel like you wish you knew more about it before you even went down that path. think my microphone is dying. That’s why it’s blinking on me. Anyways, would love to hear feedback. And ⁓ thanks for tuning in.

Giacomo (48:57)
Hahaha

Sawyer (49:02)
So, Jacmo, do you want to sign us off here? I guess we Okay, all right. So like us on the socials, Muscles by Brussels, at VeganProteins. Check us out at veganproteins.com. Fill out an application, we’ll get to you in a business day or And thanks for watching. Bye.

Giacomo (49:04)
I thought we were good. I welcome you got to see you got to do the sign off Sawyer.

Uh-huh.

Bye.