Ep 262 – Menopause and Weight Loss: Why Your Old Strategies Stop Working

In this episode of Vegan Proteins’ Muscles by Brussels Radio, Dani and Alice dive deep into the realities of perimenopause, menopause, hormones, and maintaining a strong, healthy physique as women get older. They discuss the overwhelming amount of information online, the difference between helpful education and fear-based messaging, and why menopause is a complex transition rather than a simple explanation for every struggle with weight loss.

The conversation covers how declining estrogen and progesterone can impact muscle retention, body fat distribution, insulin sensitivity, recovery, sleep, and overall stress tolerance. Dani and Alice discuss why calories in versus calories out still applies, while acknowledging that the factors influencing calorie needs and adherence can change over time. They also talk about why strength training, movement, adequate nutrition, and patience become even more important as women age.

They explore topics like chronic dieting, metabolic adaptation, reverse dieting, fiber intake, digestion, stress management, and the importance of avoiding extreme approaches. The episode also breaks down hormone replacement therapy (HRT), what it can and cannot do, why it is highly individual, and why medical guidance matters when considering hormonal treatments.

Whether you are navigating menopause yourself, coaching women through this stage of life, or simply want to better understand how the female body changes with age, this episode provides a balanced look at fitness, hormones, and long-term health.

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TRANSCRIPT

Dani Taylor (00:00)
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Danny. And welcome to another episode. I feel like you and I haven’t done one together in a while. So this is exciting. I like how Ben put us on the menopause birth control episode. He’s like, you two with the uteruses. We’ll talk about this one. So how have you been? I feel like I haven’t seen you in person in a while. I feel like I was seeing you so regularly, and then I have

Alice (00:05)
I’m Alice.

Dani Taylor (00:25)
seen you for a while.

Alice (00:26)
Yeah, well I think I think we were we’re both really just burnt out on travel and I know you were burnt out on travel like last year too and I was the opposite of burnt out on travel. So I was trying to come see you like as many times as possible. And now I’m just like, All right, we need to chill this year and especially with me taking my my coaching course, that’s that’s taking up a lot of bandwidth in a good way. ⁓ and so yeah, but hopefully we can change that soon and we can see each other.

Dani Taylor (00:54)
Yeah.

Alice (00:54)
Hopefully before August. I don’t know.

Dani Taylor (00:56)
Well, definitely

in August. I don’t know if we’ll see each other before August, but definitely we’ll see each other in August, which is gonna come up faster than you think. That I’m sure of. So what have you been up to? How’s your ankle? How’s your training?

Alice (01:08)
My ankle is getting better and better and better. I keep telling people like it’s basically a hundred percent now. ⁓ the only thing that I would say is not one hundred percent is just the range of motion. and I’m continuing to stretch that. Thank you, by the way, for giving me that enormous list of of stretches to try from. I’ve definitely like whittled it down to the things that have been like really feeling good and I feel like are moving the needle the most. and I’m doing those like

⁓ at least the days that I’m training. and my training is going pretty well. It’s I’m trying not to be discouraged because having so much time out, my strength is definitely not where I want it to be. Definitely not anywhere close to where it was. So I’m just trying to like get back to normal. And then and then like depending on how fast that is, like literally like Jacqueline called me yesterday to talk about plant built stuff and I was like

Dani Taylor (01:53)
Mm.

Alice (02:00)
I honest like it’s irresponsible for me to plan any kind of like competitions for this year, you know? So luckily next year, but we’ll see how that goes. What about what about you? How’s your thumb?

Dani Taylor (02:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It’s good.

It’s good. It’s not a hundred percent, but it’s like ninety percent. So I don’t know how I sprained it. I don’t I don’t know if it was sprained or broken or what, but it was really, really jacked up for months. Like this happened in the beginning of March, it’s now the beginning of June. and I’m just now starting to be able to like hook grip certain lifts again, but really anything that’s above, I don’t know, ninety pounds, it still doesn’t feel great. So that’s hard. I just don’t want to lose the habit.

of doing hook grip because it was already like a pain for me to learn in the first place. So now it’s like I’m not doing it again. ⁓ so I I don’t want to lose the habit.

Alice (02:43)
Mm-hmm. Are you having like callus

like development like here from your hook grip or anything?

Dani Taylor (02:49)
Not really. So a little bit of stuff here and then I’ve torn the backs of my thumbs multiple times, not from hook grips specifically, but just from cleans, I guess. yeah, I’m getting all sorts of little ⁓ problems on my hands in weird places I’m not used to. But yeah, but overall I would say just like the CrossFit training has been

Just super, super fun. And it’s really interesting for me to just be doing such a performance based thing right now because, you know, some days I show up and I feel like a million bucks and I do not perform as well as I think I should be performing that day. And then other days I show up and I just don’t feel like quite right. And then I just like knock it out of the park. And I’m just trying to kind of track down like why sometimes these things are happening. And it’s it’s interesting. It’s just it’s a very different perspective. ⁓

But it is still very fun, even though it’s still so so so so hard. ⁓ yeah.

Alice (03:43)
Yeah, yeah, I can’t even imagine. But I’m sure

I think I think a lot of people say that to me when I tell them that I’m that I do strong woman training now. They’re like, I can’t even imagine so

Dani Taylor (03:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s a it’s it’s a very strange and it’s also just very strange from like a okay, I’ve been programming for people for close to twenty years and now I’m doing CrossFit, which is like the opposite of programming, which that’s probably the weirdest thing to me. It’s just like, okay, what is programming? Who cares? We just show up and do some random shit. and I can kind of see some of the progressions over time. Like I can kind of see what they’re doing behind the scenes, but then there’s just also a lot of stuff that’s like, huh.

Alice (04:05)
Mm-hmm.

Dani Taylor (04:20)
You know, it was like kind of random. But I guess that’s the point. The sport is to be ready for anything at any moment. So whatever. ⁓ but I’m liking it. It’s fun. okay, so as we were talking about before I hit record, I showed up to this with the entire wrong kind of notes. I thought this was gonna be more a topic about birth control specifically. ⁓ but I guess we’re gonna be talking more about menopause, which honestly I think is probably more

Alice (04:27)
I don’t know here, but it’s good, good.

Dani Taylor (04:46)
pertinent to our audience right now anyway. and I know you showed up with like a full-on plan. So I’m gonna let you lead this conversation and follow you sort of through it. So let’s do this.

Alice (05:01)
Yeah, so you know, I think I think I I know I’m having a lot of people, whether they be my one on one clients, whether they be Muscles by Brussels members coming and asking about just lots and lots of menopause questions. And I think it’s just because of all of the information overload that’s happening on social media. and, you know, some some pretty like wild questions, because I think

a lot of people are like throwing around words like cortisol all the time and making very specific claims about them. and there’s also sort of like this anti it’s almost like anti-menopause conversation as far as like there are coaches out there being like, ⁓ you’re just not adhering to a calorie deficit. Right. And sort of like

Dani Taylor (05:46)
Mm.

Alice (05:48)
Th it it’s it’s it’s toxic. It’s throwing around guilt. I don’t like it. I don’t like the blaming. so

Dani Taylor (05:50)
Mm-hmm.

It’s tricky. Like so I know you like had a part about like the internet sort of discourse about this. And first of all, I’m trying to figure out, and I don’t know, you know, you’re 39, I’m 40. ⁓ wait, are you 39 or are you gonna be 39? okay, and a couple yeah. okay, so you’re 38 and I’m 40. And I’m wondering, like, was there always this much conversation about perimenopause and menopause on the internet? Or is it just because we’re older?

Alice (06:07)
I’m gonna be thirty nine in week.

Dani Taylor (06:21)
That now we’re just like seeing it more. Cause it seems like it’s everywhere, everywhere. And I don’t remember seeing this much discourse about birth control when I was in my 20s. So I can’t tell if this is just like a big marketing thing, or is it like a positive thing where it’s like, okay, people are just giving more attention to menopause and perimenopause, which has been very

neglected and understudied for a very long time, not taken very seriously. I can’t tell, but I do think you’re right. Well like when it comes to social media in general, there is no room for nuance in these 90 second reels. So it either sounds like people are saying, you’re broken, your body doesn’t work anymore. So too bad, so sad, or suck it up buttercup, the same rules still apply and you’re just not adhering, you know, and it’s I think it’s a lot more complicated than either of those.

Alice (07:11)
Yeah. I I do think that sure there there there definitely should have been marketing, you know, before before now. But I think that now it is unique that we have got coaches popping up that that’s like their entire demographic that they serve. So I think the conversation is definitely heightened and I think that there’s a lot more I think overall there is some positivity there because people

are finally starting to like believe women that yes, it is true. What’s happening is so hard. It makes it so much harder to lose weight. And it it stirs up the conversation like, ⁓ you know, weight loss is gonna look different as we get older. Weight loss is gonna get harder. But trying to navigate w what exactly that is and

how it’s still gonna be nuanced a little bit from person to person, depending on an individual’s hormonal health. It’s just so many layers and a lot of misinformation too.

Dani Taylor (08:12)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I just I cannot help but wonder like, was the algorithm just not showing this to us 10 years ago and now it is? I don’t know. ⁓ but yeah, I get messages. Actually, when we were doing our launch last week, I got a few messages on ⁓ Instagram that were like, Is this a menopause program? And ⁓ you know, my answer was like, Well, it’s it’s not a menopause program specifically. However,

Alice (08:18)
Yeah.

Dani Taylor (08:36)
I mean, I would have to guess probably half of our clientele is somewhere in the peri postmenopausal spot. So kind of, that was my answer. Like it’s not, but I guess kind of because that’s a lot of the people that we work with. And I think that would be true of anybody that works with women over the age of like thirty. You have to you have to at least know about this stuff. So

Alice (08:59)
Yeah. I also think that us being bodybuilders actually surprisingly sort of tees us up to be really more successful and more understanding of what’s going on because coming off of competition prep, a lot of us experience like that metabolic downregulation and then we experience like, all right, it’s time to gain weight.

And maybe the scale starts going up and maybe at some point, you know, we say, hmm, I am sort of ready for the weight loss to stop. And then you change everything and do everything correctly. And then your body’s like, too bad, it’s still gonna keep going up. And it’s and it’s a scary, scary process. ⁓ and so just going through that experience, I think, I think is is really, really helpful because it’s like, no, they’re not.

Dani Taylor (09:39)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alice (09:51)
It’s not BS. This is a real phenomena that happens. of course of course there’s gonna be things that look different, but yeah, yeah. What about have you I mean have you experienced that specifically, like coming off of your competition prep and

Dani Taylor (09:52)
Mm.

Not not exactly because for the most part after my competition preps I did rec I recovery dieted very quickly. So I like deliberately gained, you know, ten or fifteen pounds fast. I mean like in a matter of like two or three weeks probably it was up there. It was very uncomfortable. but because I kind of made peace with that beforehand and I wasn’t trying to do this like slow crawl out of prep, I don’t think that I experienced that specifically.

⁓ I mean, I’ve struggled with my weight my my my whole life. I think if just like left to my own devices, my body would like and my body and my habits and my I would just be overweight if I just didn’t like try anything ever. So I ⁓ I feel like I’ve been pretty lucky, I guess, that I guess a lot of my reproductive issues, I’ve had them for so long that I’ve kind of learned to work with them.

But for women going into perimenopause, it’s like a second puberty. It’s like learning their body, you know, if you remember puberty waking up and being like, Who what is this? Whose body is this? Like it’s like that all over again. But it’s like at this point you’ve had like some forty years to get comfortable in your body and now suddenly it’s just working differently than you’re used to. And you have to you have to relearn

A lot of things, I think, in order to continue to be successful. But I do think that it’s possible to be successful. So I really don’t like the the posts and stuff that I’m seeing of people kind of just implying, if not outright saying, You’re in menopause now, your body is broken in all of these different ways. Like there’s certainly things that happen in menopause that are not favorable, but

You’re not broken. Like this is what our bodies are designed to do for better or worse. And while no, you might not be able to achieve the same physique that you could have achieved in your twenties. That doesn’t mean that you can’t still achieve a a great physique, great health, good energy. ⁓ it’s just we might have to do it a little bit differently. And I think the biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest takeaway is you are gonna need to have a lot more patience.

Alice (12:07)
Absolutely. so I know you didn’t get to attend this particular lecture on the holistic holiday at sea, but I attended one with Dr. Oliviera, and she was specifically talking about like an entire lecture dedicated to like how challenging it is for women to lose weight in this stage of life, and talking about how

our estrogen is going to start declining in our forties. So this really neat like slide that was like the different like ages of women and the levels of estrogen. And it’s like as soon as forty hits like a 30 is like the full red, right? And then 40 it’s like, we have this little start to decline. Fifty it’s like a more severe decline and like every decade forward it just continues to to decline more and more.

And when that estrogen declines, she is talking about how that’s going to contribute to losing muscle mass, it’s going to contribute to women being more prone to storing body fat in their midsection because if you think about it, you know, if the body is now missing this estrogen and like trying to survive,

Dani Taylor (13:11)
Yeah.

Alice (13:17)
alternate way an alternate source of estrogen is in stored body fat so storing it specifically in our midsection and that that’s why it becomes so stubborn so difficult to lose in that area so like literally literally a survival mech mechanism and this is why you know of course where coaches like us come in and say hey it’s really really important that you lift weights

Dani Taylor (13:44)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (13:45)
Right, because we st if we start losing that muscle, then between estrogen loss, between muscle loss, between just getting older, you know, our basal metabolic rate and our resting metabolic rate will start going down. You know, it can decrease. I think Dr. Oliviera was saying anywhere from like around 15%, right? which e we’re women, we’re already having to eat so little, like that’s that’s a lot.

Dani Taylor (13:47)
Swell.

Yeah. Well, just I was thinking about something as you were talking. Like, I don’t know if you remember this, but I remember it so clearly. Around like 2013, 14, 15, the the buzzword at of the time was estrogen dominance. Do you remember this at all? Everybody was like, no, I can’t lose weight because I’m estrogen dominant. I’m estrogen dominant. I’m estr it was just like, how do we get the estrogens away? Like, how do I decrease my estrogen as much as possible?

Alice (14:12)
So you have anything to add to that?

No.

Dani Taylor (14:41)
and ⁓ I just think it’s really I mean, I knew at the time that it was pretty much like BS at the time and it still is, but you know, estrogen was very demonized, I guess is the point. And we still see it demonized when people are talking about the fear around phytoestrogens, which are not estrogens, but estrogen is very protective. so I think that’s important to talk about, like just

That the reason, the one of the main reasons that we have a lot of these issues during menopause is because our estrogen and eventually our progesterone decreases to almost nothing. But the estrogen that we’ve been like shit talking for our whole adult lives was actually the thing that was protecting us in a lot of ways. It’s very protective in your brain, like it supports cognitive function, it supports focus and attention, it regulates mood.

Estrogen protects your bone health. Body temperature. Is that what she said? yeah. That that is one. it helps your blood vessels stay flexible, which is probably part of why the body temperature is part of it. preserves muscle, like you just said. It protects us against

Alice (15:27)
temperature.

Dani Taylor (15:40)
Things like diabetes. It protects us against things like breast cancer. it makes our skin quality better and thicker. Like there are a lot of really good things that estrogen has done for us. And it’s the decrease of that estrogen that is causing a lot of the problems. So that might sound really obvious to a lot of people, but I don’t think people understand how I didn’t even understand quite how protective estrogen actually was.

So, yes, too much of it can be a bad thing, of course, just like anything, but it’s important.

Alice (16:09)
Right. And I’d love for you to talk a little bit about the Girls Gone Strong course. ⁓ I read through the the textbook very speedily one day, ⁓ but you actually like took the floor the full course and of course like real lots of good information there, but like, you know, what were some of the takeaways?

Dani Taylor (16:27)
So I’m glad I took it because what I learned in it mostly was actually all of the not great things that do happen to your body during menopause, perimenopause, how complicated it can be, why these decreases in our hormones affect us so much and what it does actually change. Because what you hear

a lot from like both sides of the camp. I guess one side is like during menopause your metabolism slows down so much. You hear that from one side. And from the other side you hear, well, your metabolism scientifically doesn’t start to slow down until you’re sixty, which is is also true. But like that’s in a vacuum. That’s if all variables are sort of equated for, which menopause by itself

doesn’t do that, right? Like it literally changes all the variables. So we have to keep that in mind that, you know, when some of these things that estrogen is no longer doing in our body change, a good example would be we become more insulin resistant during menopause because that estrogen was protecting us and helping us metabolize carbohydrates in a different way. And without it, we are just less insulin sensitive.

And that puts us at a higher risk of developing ⁓ bad blood sugar, prediabetes, diabetes, et cetera. And like you mentioned, it doesn’t change how much body fat we store, which I think is a common misconception, but it does change where we store that body fat, which is why you hear so many people talk about, well, I never had a belly before, but now I have a belly, because traditionally female body fat storage patterns are like hips, glutes, thighs.

Male body fat storage pattern is more stomach and low back, but now we have less female hormone in our body. So we start storing fat closer to that of ⁓ male than we ever have before. Even if it’s the same amount. It’s like it’s sort of like redistributed a bit, but it feels like we’ve gained a lot of body fat. and it’s just very complex. That’s that’s the guess that’s the takeaway, is like it is complex. Yes.

Alice (18:22)
She

Dani Taylor (18:27)
Calories in, calories out still applies. And I know that that pisses a lot of people off to hear. It does still apply. You just have to recognize that your calories out may have changed for a variety of reasons. So what used to be a calorie deficit may not be a calorie deficit anymore. But the course itself, so while I did learn a lot about menopause, there was some there was an interesting chapter about the pelvic floor.

that I thought was pretty good. But the actual, like, you know, I didn’t take this specifically to learn about exactly what happens in the body during menopause. I took it to learn, okay, how do I coach women better that are dealing with this? And in that regard, I don’t want to say I found it to be lacking. Like I don’t think they did anything wrong. But the answer is, guys, it’s actually not that different. The coaching itself is not, they don’t say, you should cut their calories, you should increase their calories, you should do this.

It’s mainly like you have to help them manage their stress better, help them sleep better, make sure that they’re lifting, but also listening to their bodies and not trying to push like a 20-year-old athlete. but there was no like magic in there of how to help menopausal women lose weight. Those things all still apply, unfortunately, which you know, nobody wants to hear that, but that’s what it is. It’s just gonna be a longer process and you know, a bit slower.

tweaking things, testing things as you go to see what works in your life now, because you’re kind of in a slightly different body now.

Alice (19:49)
Yeah. ⁓ gosh. So you’re talking about like people maybe not being in a calorie deficit, right? And coming back to yeah, our resting metabolic rate, our ba basal metabolic rate may be coming down. And so a lot of clients come to us and are just like, I think, you know, ooh we’ll s we’ll give them some nutrition guidelines. And one of the first thing that people come back with is, this is I don’t think this is a low enough

deficit. I think I need lower lower calories. And the challenge with this is if we were to just continue cutting calories and cutting calories and cutting calories, you would not be getting enough like nutritional variety to be able to thrive. So that’s why all you know I really, really stress we we really, really stress the addition of like regular movement goals.

You know, and I always am to telling people like it gets it gets harder because you know our bodies are a lot more sensitive to stress at this time. So this is a little bit where cortisol comes in. I’m not gonna make too many claims about cortisol because there’s just there’s too much that we don’t know yet. But you know, yeah, and

Dani Taylor (20:53)
Right.

But stress in general, right? Like we know stress is not good for us.

Alice (21:00)
Stress can literally make it so that our bodies are more resistant to change. Our bodies are always resistant to change. We’re trying, the body wants to be in homeostasis at all times. This becomes more and more dialed in and intense as we get older. So, you know, I’ll start working with with women and they’ll be doing a great job adhering and body measurements will start to change.

And progress photos will start to change. But the scale is just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And this really freaks people out. It’s terrifying. It’s terrifying because you’re like, that’s where most people get their validation, right? But the scale will catch up. It’s just going to look different. It’s not going to be more like, you know, for most people, the steady crawl down. For most people, it’s going to be more of like sort of a whoosh effect.

Dani Taylor (21:31)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (21:52)
And then another like long wait period. Meanwhile your body is still changing and you’re still losing fat. It just this is it just looks different, right?

Dani Taylor (21:57)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. I actually have a client right now and it’s a guy and he’s in prep. ⁓ but he is deep in bodybuilding prep, deep. And we’re seeing the same thing happen to him right now. He’s not in menopause, right? He’s not in perimenopause, but he’s by design underfed, over exercised, stressed about the prep itself, stressed every day he steps on the scale and it’s not moving.

Alice (22:07)
Mm-hmm.

Dani Taylor (22:25)
⁓ and I literally, literally right before we started recording this, had to make a video that was like, listen, I need you to like woosah your way through the scale weights because the stressing about this is actually kind of working against us right now. Like if the more you can try to just be a Zen master through this, the better our results are going to be.

It’s really hard though. And as I was saying it, I was like, listen, I know you can’t just snap your fingers and not be stressed about this anymore because you’re like putting your heart and soul into it. But if you can try, we will have better results. Cause I can see in the photos, I can see what’s happening. The stress is causing him to retain more water. So even though he is getting leaner, like it’s a little bit harder to see and the scale’s not moving, which just validates how he feels that he’s not getting leaner, even though he actually is. We have to

bring the stress down enough that his body can kind of like let go of some of that stress water. And that’s not just mental. That could be like taking rest days, having a refeed, et cetera. but the the fact that stress plays such a role and women in a menopausal state, their bodies just their baseline is more stressed physically. Physically. And then you also add the fact that there are all these cognitive effects as well that happen during perimenopause and menopause. And ⁓ that means mentally they could be more stressed as well.

And all of these things are compounding, which means that we need to be, yes, we’re trying to coax the body to do something, right? We’re trying to coax the body to build muscle or lose weight and give it the stimulus it needs to do those things. But we also need to be a little bit more gentle with it when we see, okay, your your ⁓ like bandwidth for stress is more narrow. So when we kind of do start to go to the other side of that bandwidth, it’s like, okay, we gotta do something.

Thing to pull that back into a like a normal range because your body is just not quite as tolerant to stress as it used to be. Like, listen, you’re a badass warrior who has dealt with your entire life. I’m not saying you can’t handle stress, I’m saying your body is just in a different place right now, and it’s going to require you to be just a little bit slower, gentler, and nicer to it in order to get the results. And nobody wants to hear that because they just want to beat their body into submission.

Alice (24:32)
Exactly.

you the what you said about like the like the bandwidth for stress, like that is that’s so good because one of the re gosh, one of the reasons it becomes so much harder and like how this actually looks what this looks like in reality is if we are, you know, less consistent with hitting our nutrition goals specifically, like our macros, if we are

less consistent with our movement goals. What’s happening is we’re we’re changing our calorie deficit. And when that happens, huh the body starts stressing. And the body starts hanging on even even harder and resisting even harder. So this is why I tell people a lot of times like it gets harder to diet because you have to do it more perfectly to like

Dani Taylor (25:20)
Yeah.

Alice (25:20)
See that consistency still gonna happen like cause the consistency in the results. Right? So if you are, you know, maybe nailing your nutrition goals and you’re like, man, I can walk extra today, or I’m gonna do a whole bunch of extra cardio, your body could be like, ⁓ no, no, we’re not. All right, we’re done. We’re done.

Dani Taylor (25:26)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep. And

I have a I have another client that I think just metabolically she is an outlier where her calorie needs are significantly lower. This is what most people think they are, but most people are not. But she I think might actually be. And I have to tell her, like, listen, this sucks. This this hand you were dealt sucks and I’m sorry, but it is the hand you were dealt. You have a much smaller margin of error.

than most people do in order to keep things moving. And I wish you had a bigger one, but you don’t. So if you want to keep making forward progress, we gotta keep it tight to the plan. and I’m all about being as flexible as you can be while still getting results. We all are, right? All of the coaches here are. But some people just don’t have a lot of wiggle room. and that blows. But it is what it is. I do want to talk about something that might it might ruffle some feathers, but I think it’s important to also talk about.

⁓ so before I talk about it, I do think this phenomenon is real of women who are tracking, they’re doing all of this, they’re doing all of this stuff, right? And it is just not working the way we would predict it would work on paper. They are doing it, and there’s actually a researcher who’s currently studying this phenomenon. I just looked them up to make sure I didn’t butcher the Instagram handle. on Instagram, it’s Bill Campbell PhD. And

He’s been he’s been big in the fitness space for a long time, but he, you know, like all of us, as he has gotten older, thus has his clientele, and he has noticed the same thing. Athletes he’s worked with for a long time. Suddenly, the stuff they’ve done is just not working. He knows they’re adhering. So he’s actually started like an actual study where he is study. And I don’t know exactly what the I don’t know if it’s self-reporting. I’m not sure how it’s gonna be done, but I would say keep an eye because I think hopefully we’ll have some actual answers for.

when this is happening. Like what is actually what exactly is going on? Cause I don’t think that we know yet fully. But but I do also think that there are people who are not doing things as closely as they think they’re doing them. You know, a lot of people are having life changes around this time of their life. You know, forty five, fifty five, a lot of people with kids, their kids

Have now moved out. Suddenly they’re not running around taking care of their kids all the time. ⁓ some of them are retiring. They’re not, you know, they’re now they suddenly are not. Their life is different, and they might not have even noticed that their activity has gone down significantly. Or maybe they haven’t noticed that they’re not having a glass of wine once a week. Now they’re having, you know, they don’t have to go to work tomorrow. They’re having it on a Tuesday night or a Thursday night or whatever as well. they have more time. I know when I’m

bored and I don’t have anything to do, boy, snacking is really easy. Like, and I don’t say this to imply that anybody isn’t struggling or having a hard time, or even I’m not trying to say people are lying. What I’m saying is like, I’m a fitness professional of a long time. You are a fitness professional, I guarantee that you have also experienced those moments where you’re like, ⁓ I have let a bad habit creep in. And I didn’t even notice that I was doing it. When I realized my step count,

Had gone from 10,000 to like 5,000 inside of six months with me barely noticing it. And this is my life. you know, these things happen. And I do think that while yes, we should be investigating these things from a scientific perspective, we also need to like kind of get a little real with ourselves, take a step back and look at where maybe we actually could be making better choices as well. That’s very important.

Alice (29:06)
love that so some tools that some some clients have found helpful and the one thing that is discussed in the Girls Gone Strong course is eating more fiber, right? I think we’re just gonna have an advantage being plant-based, being vegan in the first place because it’s gonna be so much easier. We’re already gonna enjoy vegetables. so

Dani Taylor (29:18)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (29:28)
This is gonna be an easier thing for us to actually execute on, but trying to have fiber in every single meal, plants, you know, while while they’re so jam-packed full of vitamins, minerals, micronutrients, you know, there’s a range of like how well people can absorb everything, right?

Dani Taylor (29:47)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (29:48)
so if we were to eat more raw veggies, then there would be less absorption going on of those calories, of those micronutrients, right? and also as we’re getting older, our digestion may not be as optimal. So thinking about like utilizing tools like processing your food, right? Cooking your food, making shakes. This is literally going to help.

your body be able to digest better. and I know that kind of goes against a lot of sort of what we’re taught like foundationally as vegans, I think. But like this is actually something that could benefit you, right? And we’re gonna have this fiber going through our digestive system. And it’s basically like, you know, our body’s gonna be slowly able to get energy for hours after we’re eating.

And what this does is it helps reduce some of that underlying stress, right?

Dani Taylor (30:40)
And it

also, if you’re eating a little more fiber, it’s going to keep your blood sugar more stable as well, which is something that’s going to change during menopause. So that’s important for that too.

Alice (30:51)
Yeah,

so eating more fiber, you know, a lot of times I’ll tell people fiber at each meal. having movement goal ranges so that we don’t have days where it’s just like pew and then we, you know, stall, we like downregulate ourselves on accident, right? sticking with maybe even and I’m not usually a huge fan of meal plans, but meal plans can be really, really helpful just to help you nail that consistency that you need.

Dani Taylor (31:11)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (31:18)
Right. what else?

Dani Taylor (31:19)
Mm-hmm. I was also

thinking, sorry, I’m gonna double back for a second. I know that I was just talking about how like 45, 55 kids moving out of the house, people are retiring, so their lives might be a little bit less full as they were before in terms of stuff to do. The flip side of that is, and Giacomo loves to remind me of this, like your 40s are statistically the most stressful era of your life.

Like it’s the most stressful decade of your life because for most people it’s like the height of their career in terms of like how much work they’re putting in. If you do have kids, for a lot of people, this is the time where it’s just like all systems go. because of that, people are sleeping less during that decade. But they’re also, and this is the tools that you were talking about, they’re also drinking more alcohol and drinking more caffeine.

to get through all of the responsibilities that they have and then to deal with the stress at the end of the day. And both of those things, excessive caffeine or alcohol consumption, are also going to exacerbate perimetopausal symptoms for sure.

Alice (32:25)
Absolutely. ⁓ speaking about exacerbating, a lot of women that come to us, you know, they have been the masters at dieting for a long time. They’ve been able to maintain a relatively lean and arguably a very healthy physique. And then suddenly it it things start to feel like everything I’m doing is not working anymore.

And so a lot of people come to us and you know basically you’ve been under eating for so long that the like down regulation, the slowing down of the metabolism like has has gotten to a point similar to what you experience as a bodybuilder. ⁓ and so that’s the time, a lot of time, when we have to have a

Dani Taylor (33:06)
Mm-hmm.

Alice (33:12)
really difficult conversation with with clients and be like, I’m sorry, we can’t really have you diet right now. We actually have to increase your calories for a while and do it slowly and do it in a way that we’re getting you back at least up to your maintenance, which everyone thinks their maintenance is way down here, but it’s like, nope, several hundred calories up.

Dani Taylor (33:22)
Yeah.

Right. Yeah. But they’ve

they’ve driven it down there and we need to drive it back up. ⁓

Alice (33:38)
Mm-hmm.

And so it can take months. It can take months of eating more. And a lot of times this comes with a little and well, usually it’s not a lot of weight gain, but it’ll come with a little bit, right? Before we can get the body responding in a healthy way again, because this hurts our hormones, you know, under eating carbs for too long, under eating dietary fats for too long. There’s so many different things, and just too few calories you

Dani Taylor (33:41)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Alice (34:06)
You aren’t able to get the basic vitamin minerals. So you’re you have deficiencies, right? Hormones are thrown off. Like it’s so complicated. It’s not one thing. That’s why this is so confusing on the internet, is because everyone likes to kind of talk about like one part of it. And when reality it’s like this this blender of complexity in the human bodies that it could be it’s oftentimes multiple things, but it could also be worsened by very specific things like

Maybe you are you are developing hypothyroidism, right? what else? What else? ⁓

Dani Taylor (34:40)
mean it

could be I mean any sort of like long term health problem is more likely to pop up the older you are, right? Maybe your blood pressure is starting to get high chronically or your cholesterol is starting to creep up chronically. Like yeah, yeah, diabetes for sure. Like more people are diagnosed in their forties than they are in their twenties for sure, because that’s how it goes. Like the older you get, the higher you are at risk for everything, you know?

Alice (34:54)
You mentioned diabetes as well. Yeah.

Dani Taylor (35:08)
And this is why I think, and I know we’re speaking of peri and postmenopausal women here, but this is why it’s so important for any of our younger audience that’s listening. The sooner you can stop the chronic dieting, the better. Because if you have 20 years of chronic undereating under your belt, it is going to be very hard to move that needle back to where it needs to be.

So if you can nip it in the bud earlier, yes, like Alice said, it’s hard, it’s mentally hard. There’s a little bit of weight gain involved usually. But the trade-off is that you generally feel better, sleep better, perform better, your mood is better. excuse me. if you can do it when you’re younger, you’ll have way fewer problems like this when you are older. And I actually feel like that’s, you know, a lot of people, well, there’s we’ll talk about the hormone stuff in a minute, like the HRT in a minute. but a lot of people.

Alice (35:54)
Yes.

Dani Taylor (35:56)
say to me, you must be in perimenopause. And maybe, I don’t know. my mom was like through menopause by the time she was 45, done, completely done. Maybe 44. Like very young she went through it. I’m 40. Maybe. I don’t have any, I don’t think any symptoms of perimenopause. Like I haven’t noticed any changes or anything like that. And I don’t say this to toot my own horn, but I learned pretty young that chronic

dieting and chronic under eating was gonna shoot me in the foot in the long term and I think that’s part of the reason. ⁓ some people are like, it’s because this is your job to stay in shape. It’s like, dude, I sit in front of a computer for twelve hours a day. I wish it was my job to work out. That would be awesome. I think it’s because I eat enough regularly. So I don’t know.

Alice (36:40)
Yeah. And so this is where if if if you’re ready to talk start to h veer into the hormone conversations. So let’s do all those other things, right? You know, put potential like diabetes, potential hypothyroidism. And the most common, I would say arguably the most common, I’m not a doctor, not a doctor, ⁓ is going to be

Dani Taylor (36:47)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alice (37:02)
you know, needing some kind of help with hormones, right? So we help people do this reverse, sort of like reverse diet, we call it sort of similar to coming out of comp bodybuilding competition prep. we I actually took a physique and bodybuilding coach course from NASM they actually talked about this. And one of the most valuable sections was talking about how the time frame the time frame for hormonal repair

Dani Taylor (37:18)
Okay.

Alice (37:26)
is like this giant question mark. And you know, it could be worst case scenario, up to six months before you experience hormonal repair, right? of doing all the right things, of eating more, of of sleeping better, of managing your stress, right? It’s sort of like the stars have to align and the like signs of hormone repair are

not they’re they’re kind of subjective. I mean there’s right. So it’s it’s often like, are things getting better? Well, we’re not really sure. I don’t think that everyone’s gonna take six months, right? I think I think more likely, like around three mark, three month mark is like usually when most people are like, we’re getting to a better place. Would you agree with that?

Dani Taylor (38:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Absolutely. But I have seen a handful of people take closer to a year, honestly. it’s not as common, but I I guess I say this in case you’re doing this and you’re like, but it’s been six months, and like maybe it’s gonna take longer for you. I still think it’s worth the effort fully. and I do always feel like lifestyle should be defense one.

Right. Like before we start going to a doctor and talking about, hey, what what exists that could maybe help me through this? And I don’t think anybody should be suffering in silence. Like I don’t think anybody should be suffering unnecessarily, but I do think that you should look at your sleep, you should look at your food, you should look at your stress, your drinking, all of that before you try to go down that path personally. But it’s a very personal path. And I think in all of the

So okay, we can talk we can talk about HRT stuff. So HRT is hormone replacement therapy. And this term is so broad, that it doesn’t mean just one thing. And I think a lot of people don’t really know that. They just think HRT is just a everybody’s on the HRT. And it’s like the HRT is different for every it’s not Tylenol, right? It’s a protocol that’s probably unique to you, probably.

And we are not doctors. So you should so you should talk to yours. if you are doing all of the things that you feel like you should be doing and you still feel like you’re suffering, it could be worth talking to your doctor. unfortunately, I think

Alice (39:20)
No.

Yes.

Dani Taylor (39:35)
The main one of the biggest reasons I see people go talk to their doctors about HRT is struggling to lose weight. And they think that HRT is going to help them do that. And there is actually no research to suggest that it will actually help you lose weight. The number one thing that it is actually shown to help with is hot flashes. Yeah, which which in turn will improve your sleep.

Alice (39:56)
Preparing your sleep.

Dani Taylor (40:00)
And if your sleep is better, lots of other things in your life could be better. But there’s not like a direct line between perimenopausal style HRT and weight loss, unfortunately. ⁓

Alice (40:11)
That being

said, you know, and I don’t ever bring up HRT to people until we have like really just exhausted the r attempt at the reverse diet. We’ve really, really tried, you know, mm I I guess I want to say like natural unassisted ways, maybe unassisted ways to improve sleep, right? And we’ve been through this when we’ve argu you know, arguably done all the right things.

Dani Taylor (40:30)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Alice (40:38)
first and it’s at that point that I then I might suggest to people, all right, we have reached this point. It has been this amount of time. I don’t want to pr pressure you into anything, but this is a possibility. and typically the typically you go to your doctor and you know the first line of treatment they will suggest is usually estrogen and progesterone.

Right. now the doses can be different. You know, your provider might need to work with you on different doses, which it can be even more frustrating because each time it’s like you gotta get on this dose and you gotta give it enough time to start working.

Dani Taylor (41:17)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And I would also say, like, so when I talk to my clients about this, I never say go ask your doctor about HRT. I say go talk to your doctor about the, you know, the symptoms you’re having and all the things that you’re doing and see if they’ll run some blood work on you to get a better idea of what’s going on. and usually from there, if the doctor thinks it’s a good idea, often like they will bring it up. and I think that

I think that for some people it can be absolutely life-changing. not everybody. And that’s the thing, right? Like when I look at all of these studies, and I you like I said, I I was coming to this thinking we were talking about birth control. So I was largely looking at birth control studies, but it’s worth mentioning that that estrogen progesterone that they will give you as HRT for perimenopause symptoms, is often birth control, which a lot of people don’t realize that.

Or it’s birth control with like a different name, right? Like the same as like ⁓ what is it? Like yeah, or like you know how people are like, well, Manjaro is for weight loss and wagovi is for diabetes. I might have that backwards. They’re the same drug, they have a different name. Like a lot, most HRT is very, very, very similar to birth control. It might be the exact same thing with a different name. where was I going with this? ⁓ looking at the studies. Okay, so I was looking at studies about birth control and

Alice (42:07)
a patch. You might be a patch instead of a pill.

Dani Taylor (42:29)
muscle building, birth control and performance in the gym, birth control and weight loss, birth control and recovery. And basically when you look at the averages across all of these studies, there’s no difference between the group that is taking oral contraceptive and not. There’s no differences. That said, when you look at the individuals, not the average but the individual, there are huge differences.

And that’s why I think you hear so many wildly different stories about birth control and therefore HRT as well, because the individual experience can be very different, which is why you know it’s kind of a pain in the ass. It’s kind of a trial and error thing for a lot of people. but as somebody who has been on birth control as a form of hormonal replacement, hormonal treatment, let’s say, not replacement for.

polycystic ovarian syndrome and endometriosis since I was probably like 23 years old, 24 years old, so 14 years straight, it absolutely saved my life. 100%. But that’s not everybody’s story. Some people go on it and they experience horrible mood swings of weight gain and other side effects that are really unfavorable. So that’s why I’m never like, you should try birth control. It’s gonna save your life. Like, no, it saved mine.

because of my problems, right?

But the the I guess the point is I don’t think it’s a one size fits all. And I think it’s really important that you do talk to your doctor about it because they might they might know something about your examples. So I have some clients who have a particular gene that puts them at a higher risk for blood clots and therefore they can’t take the HRT that a lot of people they have to do like a progesterone only situation.

Et cetera, et cetera. Like there’s there’s stuff that you need to be you can’t shouldn’t just be buying this stuff on like the gray market, which is crazy that that’s happening, but it is.

So yeah, is there anything else that I want to say about that specifically?

Alice (44:24)
I do want to say that like I have had numerous clients get on HRT and some people it is like an instant change and suddenly fairly in some cases almost effortlessly the weight starts coming off and it’s like it’s literally like this is magical. Other people it’s been like okay, we tried adjusting doses.

Dani Taylor (44:37)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alice (44:47)
And maybe eventually the doctor decides, hmm, let’s try some testosterone replacement therapy next. And I mean, if you know anything about testosterone, you’re pretty pretty likely to experience fat loss ⁓ when you’re on testosterone. so it can do some marvelous things. but you know, also it’s important to be like, you know, we’re not

Dani Taylor (45:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alice (45:11)
necessarily going to the doctor for HRT, specifically like for weight loss only. because your doctor’s not necessarily gonna feel like that’s like a good enough reason on its own, right? It’s like how what what perimenopause and menopause symptoms are you experiencing? Are you experiencing, you know, waking up at two, three, four in the morning? Are you experiencing night sweats?

Are you experiencing like brain fog and emotional challenges? you know, if our sleep is disrupted, that’s gonna pull the rug out from any fitness plan.

Dani Taylor (45:49)
One hundred percent. Mm-hmm.

Alice (45:51)
So,

you know, we’re really sort of not not sort of we’re really going to our provider for HRT for deeper underlying things that can align the hormonal stars and then it’s like, huh, now your body is able to lose that weight, if that makes sense.

Dani Taylor (46:03)
Mm.

Yeah.

And you know, I remember talking actually to one of our members, clients, Dave, who I’m sure will listen to this, years ago, talking about hormone replacement therapy for men, right? Because these TRT clinics are popping up like everywhere. And every twenty five year old bro suddenly has low testosterone and needs to go get HRT. Don’t get me started. but Dave said something and he was like, Well, you know, if someone is a sixty year old man and they have low testosterone, isn’t that

normal like isn’t that what is supposed like if our if it declines as we get older isn’t that a normal thing and yes i agree actually like women having decreased estro estrogen and progesterone to almost nothing at a certain that is technically normal like that’s nature doing nature’s thing however witnessing the suffering that people go through in these situations when they do genuinely

have perimenopausal symptoms, men with incredibly low testosterone, the way the things that they suffer through, like genuinely low testosterone, you know, I think we live a lot longer than we used to. And if we can find a way to make that more pleasant, not artificially pleasant, not supernatural pleasant, but just like back to normal-ish, then I I’m in I’m in favor of it.

Now I do think that like you mentioned the testosterone. ⁓ I have had a couple of clients who have been prescribed like a testosterone cream over the years. So we mentioned birth control, like pills, you said patches, sometimes it’s creams, sometimes it’s creams to be put in very specific places. Ladies, if you know what I’m talking about, you know what I’m talking about. but there are side effects of those things too. Like some of them did experience some positives from the testosterone, but then

They were not thrilled that they were suddenly growing like facial hair, you know, and they stopped doing it. So I think that it really like you really have to talk to your doctor, but I don’t think it’s something that you should just start throwing weird stuff at willy-nilly. and I know we’re gonna have a round table talk about peptides, which is a whole other thing. but it seems like they’re all getting lumped together, right? HRT, testosterone, peptides.

GLP ones, all of like all of it is just like people are kind of making their own like weird ass concoctions of shit that they’re taking now, Frankensteining their own bodies. I don’t think it’s a good idea.

Alice (48:22)
Yeah, I’m surprising how many people are willing to take risks in that way.

Dani Taylor (48:27)
Think people

understand the risks that they’re taking. Like, I don’t know. ⁓ but it’s ⁓ you know, the conversation about perimenopause and HRT, like I feel like a lot of people have this sort of like purist idea around it. I mean, just medicine in general, right? Like, if you have to take any sort of synthetic, exogenous anything, you failed. Like, you didn’t do it right if you have to take medicine and

Alice (48:29)
Yeah.

Dani Taylor (48:52)
This has nothing to do with menopause, but I know I went through this when I was younger. I know you went through this when you were younger with your ulcerative colitis. I went through it with the endometriosis. Like I tried everything that any whack job told me to try to get rid of, improve my endometriosis naturally with food, diet, lifestyle, et cetera. And ⁓ not only did none of it work, some of it straight up sent me to the emergency room.

And it wasn’t until I started using birth control in a very specific way that I won’t get into because nobody needs to try to copy my protocol, but that I got my life back. But I d felt with a lot of shame about it personally for a long time. because it’s so demonized. And I could go on a diatribe about how the same people that gave me shit for a decade about taking birth control are now the same ones telling everybody to take HRT, even though they’re the same thing.

Alice (49:42)
Right. Yeah.

Dani Taylor (49:44)
⁓ you just have to know that your story is your story. Sorry, go ahead.

Alice (49:45)
And we experience a lot and

And we experience this a lot in the vegan movement as far as like, if you’re not healed by food, then there’s something wrong with you. You’re doing something wrong. It’s not that you have an actual disease, actual diagnosis, where it’s food is not going food can improve things as far as reducing your inflammation, your total body inflammation, right? it can help us get the right vitamins, micronutrients.

Dani Taylor (49:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Alice (50:13)
right that can improve things. But you know, these medicines exist for a reason and there’s nothing wrong with you that you need to be taking them. I I’ll talk about this, I can talk about this for hours with my colitis, but I won’t

Dani Taylor (50:20)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And

I know that like you did experience improvements from a vegan diet and and eating really well. And I I think I pretty much cured for lack of a better word, it’s undetectable, I should say. My polycystic ovarian syndrome with a vegan diet without any medication, but the endometriosis was untouchable, like untouchable. And yeah, it really I think about the athlete that I would be if I hadn’t done that. And the answer is I wouldn’t be one.

So I know everybody thinks these hormones are going to like hurt their performance, their muscle, their recovery, et cetera. But if your quality of life is such currently that you’re not sleeping well, you can’t train well, you’re losing time in the gym, you know, lying around being in pain or miserable or fatigued or bloated or whatever it is, right? Whatever the symptoms are. And there’s something that can help you.

gain that time back, even if the studies show no difference on paper, like for you, it could be a big positive. Or you could be somebody who like your periods and menopause and it’s a breeze. Like there are people that breeze through menopause without even noticing, right? They exist. And the problem is when those people try to tell the people who do not breeze through it that they’re just doing something wrong. When really it’s like they may very well have just gotten lucky, you know?

⁓ and if you breeze through it, then you don’t need something like this. You know, if you’re not experienced, you don’t need to do anything like that. If you’re, you know, young and healthy and and don’t have painful, long, drawn out periods, birth control could be a net negative for you in terms of your mood, your performance, et cetera. But ⁓ HRT, same thing. Just depends. So it’s not like, you reach a certain age and you have to go on HRT. It’s like very individualized.

And don’t use it as a first line of defense.

Alice (52:12)
Think I think we did a pretty thorough job there.

Dani Taylor (52:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. I guess the only thing we didn’t really, really hammer home, but I feel like we hammer it home in every friggin’ episode that we do, is you gotta strength train, baby. Period. Like you’ve gotta do it. Like it’s you you’re gonna l perimenopause is gonna put you at a risk of losing muscle. Getting older is gonna put you at a risk of losing muscle. Bone density, ditto strength training is going to help that significantly do it. Okay. I don’t think we need to dive into it any further than that. So

all right.

Alice (52:41)
you know,

I always I I like to bring up these days because I feel like people are literally in this mindset of like the biggest loser a lot these days and feeling like, ⁓ the gym isn’t gonna be my only, you know, weight loss strategy. And I wanna impress on everyone like that is not the case. The the gym alone is not going to be the thing that hel l helps you start losing weight and significantly changing your body. It still plays an important role.

And how you look and your health down the line and so many complicated things. Like it’s such an important piece of the puzzle. But, you know, there’s gotta be some nutrition intervention as well.

Dani Taylor (53:18)
Absolutely. 100%. I notice for myself right now, like I can maintain the results that I have currently by just going to the gym and just the regular normal healthy habits that I have. Like I will be able to maintain. But if I want to actually make any changes from where I am right now, I’ve got to dial in. The gym is already dialed in. That’s easy. I have to dial in the nutrition. I have to dial in the sleep if I’m gonna make forward progress. you know, the gym.

Alice (53:44)
You’re also a

person who’s walking, who’s getting step goals, right?

Dani Taylor (53:47)
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Yep. Well, not as much as I would like, unfortunately. This year seems to just be brutal for steps, but hop hopefully, hopefully soon again. All right, cool. Well, I wanna let you guys know. So we did our Muscles by Brussels launch. I don’t know when this is coming out, probably next week. So a couple weeks ago for when this comes out. but it is currently closed right now. If you do want to be notified when it opens back up, we will leave a link to the waiting list in the show notes.

Alice (53:53)
Yeah.

Dani Taylor (54:12)
I think I let Ben know what that is so I can change it going forward. if you’re looking for any kind of one-on-one coaching, ⁓ several of our coaches have spots right now and they would love to be a part of your journey. if you are a ⁓ a perimenopausal woman, Alice might be your gal. Who knows? so be sure to reach out to us. We’ll leave a link to the coaching assessment down below. You’ll hear back from probably Giacomo within a business day if you fill that out. If you would like to follow us on social media,

Alice is Vegan Proteins Alice. We have Ben A. Mitchell, Soy Boy Fitness Coaching, Muscles by Brussels, and mine is at Vegan Proteins. definitely follow, shoot us a message. You’ll hear back from us directly. It’s it’s just us on there. Some people, I can’t believe you answered me. And I’m like, who else would answer you? I don’t know. if you have any questions, comments, concerns, requests of stuff you’d like to hear on this podcast, go ahead and either leave a comment on this video or

You’re just email coach at Vegan Proteins. We love to hear your suggestions. So I think that’s it. Once again, my name is Dani and we will talk to you soon. Bye.

Alice (55:10)
I’m Alice.