Ep 275 – Becoming a Champion Vegan Bodybuilder with Alex Payne

Alex Payne joins Ben on Muscles by Brussels Radio to discuss his journey from athletics and years of lifting on his own to becoming a competitive vegan bodybuilder and completing two bodybuilding seasons. Alex shares how becoming vegan gave him a deeper sense of purpose for bodybuilding, motivating him to show what could be accomplished on a plant-based diet.

The conversation covers the importance of spending time building before beginning a contest prep, including Alex’s year-plus working with Dani to develop his physique and establish a strong coach-athlete relationship. They discuss the lessons Alex learned about recovery, consistency, training, nutrition, posing, and trusting the process, as well as the differences between his first and second competition seasons.

Alex also opens up about the realities of contest prep and the often-overlooked post-show period, including changes in appetite, bodyweight, body composition, energy, and day-to-day life. He explains how setting a new goal (in his case, moving toward powerlifting) helped him transition away from chasing an onstage physique and embrace the next stage of his athletic journey.

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TRANSCRIPT

Ben (00:01.25)
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Ben, as you may know, and today I am joined on the podcast by a special guest, Alex Payne. So Alex is a client of Danny’s, and he just competed in his second bodybuilding competition season. Is that is that right? Yeah. Yeah, so we’ll we’ll talk about the first season that he did, the second season, we’ll get into

Alex Payne (00:21.186)
Yep, that’s correct. Yeah, second one since twenty twenty three.

Ben (00:29.804)
his background as an athlete, how he got into lifting, going vegan, all of the stuff that we like to talk about when we get kind of clients onto the podcast here. But before we get into all of that sort of fun stuff, I know we talked a little bit off air before, kind of getting on here. But Alex, I’d love to know just how your day’s going so far and and how your day’s been.

Alex Payne (00:50.094)
Yeah, yeah, no, pretty good so far. you know, started out bright and early. We have a special needs rescue pit bull. Her name’s Bessie, she’s you know, the light of my wife wife and I’s lives, but she’s also a lot of work, as you can imagine. So she has this, you know, tendency of waking us up very early to go pee.

And today it was it was five AM, so you know, we’ll probably get into some of this later, but I kinda took that as an opportunity to just get my lift out of the way and you know, get all those healthy habits, you know, locked in for the day. So the rest of the day can’t get, you know, too much worse.

Ben (01:32.888)
And are you by nature, would you say you’re more of a morning workout person or an evening workout person?

Alex Payne (01:38.585)
That’s funny. That’s something that I always told my wife I would you know, I would never be a a morning person. Like, you know, just like going off of college and just like you know, always being, you know, busy during the day and like you know, just generally just like lifting at night, staying up longer, like after after class, after work or whatever. That kinda just carried over into adulthood. So I I found myself lifting after after work all the time, but you know, that has

some convenience you can sleep in and, you know, just go right to work in the morning. But then you have to deal with that, you know, afternoon gym rush. You know, if you look at a public gym, you gotta deal with, you know, the rush hour traffic. not a lot of fun. And plus you’re like in the in the winter, you know, you’re getting home when it’s like sometimes like eight, nine PM and it’s like already nighttime and it feels like, God, where did the day go?

but yeah, all of that I can just go off on a on a tangent, which I kind of already have. But but yeah, actually during prep I this last last prep season, I part of the reason too was just I we my wife and I were waking up so early with our dog and I was like, you know what, I’m just gonna try to give this working out in the in the morning thing a go. And I kinda got hooked. I was like, this the there’s less people here. I can kind of focus on my workout more. the one thing was just like I had a

out like the the whole timing with like the my my breakfast and like how like how many carbs I was eating for for the fuel beforehand, which is another thing we can touch on I’m sure. But yeah, once that got worked out it was kind of smooth sailing, yeah.

Ben (03:14.477)
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think sometimes we get into certain habits and routines, like you said, just because that tends to fit our lives. And sometimes that has to change and adapt. And I think sometimes folks will struggle with this idea of, well, it would be optimal for me to do this, or like this would be my preference. but sometimes

Alex Payne (03:32.118)
Mm.

Ben (03:34.922)
Life kind of just pushes you in a different direction and you kind of just have to go with it, like you’re saying. Like, okay, you know, we’ve got our dog who’s waking up early in the morning. I’m already up. Like it doesn’t really make sense for me to kind of go back to sleep here. So I might as well just, like you said, roll with that and I’m gonna train in the mornings now. And that can’t, you know, came with a new set of challenges and things to work around. But I think sometimes those situations where we have to evolve and adapt.

Can teach us things that we wouldn’t have learned otherwise, whether that is strategies or actually, you know what? I don’t mind working out in the morning and I th would have thought that I, you know, hated him.

Alex Payne (04:11.928)
That’s a great way to put it. No, I couldn’t have said it better. I mean like yeah, I again it was something I never would have considered unless like, you know, I forget how the saying goes, but like necessity is the the driver of innovation or or or whatever. Like yeah, I I just had to you know, do it ’cause of my routine, like you said, and yeah, I ended up enjoying it more. but yeah, no like I like I just had to work out just like the the the the the meal timing really.

and then again what you said about being optimal. I think that is so true because like when I s made that decision originally I like looked into the you know, like, what does the current like scientific literature say about like what time like we should be working out? And and and I guess like the consensus was like and I correct me if I’m wrong if I’m out of date here or anything, but I I think I ended up

getting the takeaway that like, you know, it’s pr might be better, to lift like, you know, later in the day, like early afternoon, late afternoon for some people. But at the end of the day, it’s kinda just like when you can get there and like when you can be consistent, you know? And I feel like a lot of people

just split hairs over trying to have the most like optimal routine or whatever. And yeah, like you said at the end of the day, it’s like we are beholden to our our routines. Like we’re all most of us are like, you know, normal people. We’re not a professional, you know, d

D one or whatever athletes, you know, we we have we got day jobs. We gotta work around that. yeah, I think I think that’s something people kinda lose sight of s sometimes. It’s just about consistency.

Ben (05:48.278)
Yeah, whatever whatever allows you to actually get there, like you said, whatever allows you to be adherent, that is always going to trump anything else. And based on my understanding of the literature, it’s similar to you. The research has kind of shown, I think, that there might be a slight sort of elevation of core body temperature later in the day, and that can lead to, you know, maybe better performance. But I think the main thing that I’ve also taken away from the research is that we are very adaptable and we can adapt to new routines. And so maybe

Alex Payne (06:07.255)
Mm.

Ben (06:17.921)
You know, if you are used to working out in the evening and then you have as a one-off have to go work out in the morning, okay, well in that case, maybe your performance isn’t gonna be, you know, 100% what it could be. Hey, maybe it is. You don’t know until you n you necessarily go. and kind of while we’re on that topic, a lot of the research, you know, people will will look at caffeine and you know, usually there’s a ergogenic effect, which means a performance enhancing effect of caffeine, you know, at at fairly, you know, robust doses.

A lot of that research, interestingly, is done on morning workouts and morning performance. So it seems to be some sort of effect of when people are not used to working out in the morning, having some caffeine can help kind of rescue that performance. Whereas sometimes actually having caffeine in the afternoon or evening doesn’t necessarily seem to have that much of an impact on performance. So that’s an interesting note too. And especially if you’re somebody who feels like, well, I need to have caffeine in the afternoon or evening in order to, you know, get this performance enhancing boost for.

my workout, I would actually argue that I think you’re probably gonna be better off foregoing it because your sleep is not gonna be disrupted then you know, when you have that caffeine. But you have to wear the pros and cons. Like I know for myself, I love the feeling of being caffeinated for my workouts and just having that extra drive and push. And maybe that’s you too.

Alex Payne (07:19.874)
Mm, yep.

Ben (07:30.698)
Of course, there’s you know the whole fast versus slow metabolizer of caffeine. Some people you know can go through their system pretty quickly and and out and they can sleep just fine. other folks, they’re gonna be up, or you know, it’s not always necessarily even about falling asleep. Sometimes it’s just that that later sleep is is lower quality, which I didn’t really realize until recently. But we’re getting a little bit off track here. So I do want to bring things back. You know, Alex and I, we both just love nerding out about this stuff and you know, looking into the research and

Alex Payne (07:51.768)
Yeah.

Alex Payne (07:57.262)
Hell yeah.

Ben (07:58.828)
finding ways to, you know, gain go gain those little edges as athletes. And I think that’s that’s what makes the process fun and exciting for us a lot of the times as long as you don’t let it you know stress you out or create anxiety. I think that’s the key with a lot of this stuff in the age of information that we live in is finding things that are good general practices. but if you can’t tick those little one percenters, I think you know I’ve learned over time it’s actually better to be low stress

Alex Payne (08:15.063)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (08:25.877)
And not worry about the, you know, sticking those little percentages than it is to stress about doing it and having to create a routine that doesn’t actually make sense for you because you’re trying to get those things.

Alex Payne (08:34.478)
Absolutely. Yep.

Ben (08:36.619)
So I think now would be a good time just to back things up. I do want to talk about, you know, a day in the life for prep with you, how you manage your nutrition around your training as we were kind of getting to. But I think it would be cool to kind of start a little bit earlier and just look at you know, your relationship with exercise you know, from a from a young age. So did you play any sports growing up? were you active? When did kind of lifting weights enter the picture? talk me through that.

Alex Payne (08:44.43)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (09:03.596)
Yeah, yeah, great question. So yeah, it was kind of gradual, I guess. My first exposure to lifting weights was during football in in in high school. before that, you know, I played, you know, a history of just playing.

you know, I guess more physical sports, like hockey, baseball not so much. I didn’t love baseball ’cause there there was too much like grace and, you know, dexterity involved. My thing was just like just, you know, show me which direction to run and like, you know, who to hit and and where the ball needs to go. And like that was my whole thing. so yeah, didn’t really have the dexterity, but it’s like I found like

going on like okay maybe my in high school maybe like my body type is more, you know, set for foot football. I was always a larger guy, so they threw me on the offensive line. but you know, going into college, I got more exposure to, you know, a lot more things, generally as people do in college. And I found rugby and I was like, Hey, this this actually might be even better for for my body type. So that was kinda like the next evolution of of my, you know, athletic trajectory.

and also I you know being an offensive lineman in in college, I never got to touch the the football. If I was touching the football, something had gone wrong. So but it w in in in rugby, you know, I finally had the opportunity to carry the ball and you know hit kind of like you know, hit more people and engage in more of that like physicality that a lot of people you know like in you know contact sports.

So I really enjoyed that. That was probably the the most fun I’ve had. But I got a a few concussions. so I kinda had to stop that like junior year because it was you know, I was just playing on a club team, nothing special, not not like I was gonna, you know, make a career out of that or like I was on a scholarship or something. So had to stop that. but like along the along the way, you know, to kind of supplement my my you know, doing doing football and you know, doing doing rugby in college, I had picked up weightlifting and

Alex Payne (11:09.196)
Yeah, I’d I’d also had this some of the your listeners might be familiar, especially I think it’s more familiar or I’m sorry, more rather common in in in boys growing up, a like a condition in the knee called Osgood Schladers. it’s very yeah, very common in like guys that are

Playing playing sports, you know, especially contact sports that require like a lot of stopping and starting. This condition that can, you know, develop in in the knee. Nothing major. most most kids outgrow it. I didn’t really outgrow it. I I ended up getting kind of like this bone fragment thing going on in my knee. so to kind of alleviate the stress on that, I decided to lose some weight.

you know, like I think it was like sophomore year of college. And I’d actually been lifting you know, not not nothing crazy, but you know, doing like three days a week, good push pull, more of like a blow sp bro split routine for like a year or two before that. So I had a good foundation and then I d kind of decided to start, you know, tracking calories, really taking, you know, that next that next step.

you know, jumping into it and and really focusing on the nutrition aspect in addition to the the weightlifting physical aspect of it.

And yeah, I found that the the tracking really kind of spoke to or like sa satiated part of my soul, I guess. I like that need to know aspect. I like, god, I can’t go back now. and yeah, I kinda haven’t looked back. Started logging everything in my fitness pal like around 2016 and yeah, at first it was just kind of a way to figure out like how much protein I was getting ’cause I was, you know, I wanted to build muscle and then it kind of turned into calorie, you know, tracking.

Alex Payne (12:57.452)
So when I you know, when I wanted to lose some weight and yeah, I just haven’t looked back.

Ben (13:02.901)
Okay, so just so I get this timeline right, you start lifting weights when you’re in high school and you’re playing football, and that kind of continues through college as you get into playing rugby, your sophomore year of college. That’s when you kind of start maybe dialing things in a little bit more with just general fitness, you know, going losing some weight, tracking your calories. and you continue to play rugby through this time, up until, you know, sounds like your your junior year of of college. and so so after you kind of conclude playing rugby.

Alex Payne (13:07.928)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (13:32.105)
was that a decision just like I really love lifting weights in this fitness thing and I really just want to focus on that? Was it an injury? and then where did you kind of go after rugby was over for you? Is that when when you really dove full in into like, I’m gonna make the gym like my thing now?

Alex Payne (13:47.085)
Yeah, that that that’s probably a good way to put it. yeah, mostly just from the concussions I just like I

It w it was it was it was too risky to continue after I had like two or three of those guys. yeah, it just it it wasn’t worth it ’cause again I wasn’t doing it on a scholarship, wasn’t trying to make a career out of it. so unfortunately had to give that up, and kind of focused more on yeah, the lifting itself and dialing all those things in and kind of trying to, you know, make that my my main main outlet of activity. yeah.

Ben (14:19.361)
And would you say that your lifting for the large part stayed the same after you stopped playing rugby? Did you increase the number of days you were going to the gym? Did you try did you start getting more into like the evidence based fitness side of things and changing up your programming? Like how did that look?

Alex Payne (14:32.502)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah, great question. Yeah, I I definitely got more into like the more stuff that was more labeled like bodybuilding sort of workouts. getting more into really dialing in like the aesthetic part of it, less more about the you know, athletic part

you know, d draw of of working out. It was more just, you know, pursuing the aesthetics for the for the aesthetics sake after that. ’cause you know, I wasn’t really playing a a sport, so like the things I was doing in the gym didn’t necessarily have to translate to like a a real life application. It was more of just like how can I, you know, work out in a in a way to advantage, or to to the greatest advantage, like for this particular body part, you know, that I’m

I’m w I’m working out in the moment.

Ben (15:30.702)
Okay, so you knew pretty early on that after you stop playing sports, like I want to make my training focused on bodybuilding because there’s a lot of different training, you know, different routes that people can go down with lifting weights. Obviously, there’s modalities that incorporate aspects of athleticism like CrossFit and high rocks and and that sort of thing. and then there’s also, you know, within lifting weights, there is Olympic weightlifting, there’s strongman, there’s powerlifting, and there’s bodybuilding. I’d say

Alex Payne (15:37.537)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (15:57.848)
Probably bodybuilding is the most common because people just want to like build muscle, usually for health reasons and aesthetic reasons, of course, too. And then powerlifting is maybe for those who like I’ve seen a lot of it be the case whereas like former athletes who want an outlet now to still be competitive, but have something that’s a little bit more focused on strength. I know for myself pretty early on, like I was lifting heavy, like I was lifting in, you know, the four to six rep range a lot, and focusing on getting stronger.

Alex Payne (16:14.934)
Mm.

Ben (16:27.527)
But I also kind of knew that my main goal or my main focus was bodybuilding and getting bigger muscles. Like I didn’t really care as much about strength. Like strength was more as a of a means to an end for me. And there were times where I was like, I would test my one rep max and then I’d be like, why am I really doing this? Like I don’t really want to be a power lifter. It doesn’t really make sense. I’m just going to focus more on like pure bodybuilding, hypertrophy training, and you know, still sometimes lifting, you know, that heavy.

not necessarily one rep max, but maybe, you know, as low as four or five reps, something like that on on certain sets. But I’m not gonna try as much about like maxing out and I I don’t care too much about you know, my peak strength. I w I wanna really more be more of a bodybuilder. It sounds like maybe that was kind of similar for you.

Alex Payne (17:12.194)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean always there’s the draw of just like let’s see just how much weight I can throw on the bar and let’s just let’s just move this. That’s always a draw. But I mean a lot of that is just like yeah, drawing back that that like ego part of lifting, which I think is a at least for me, was just like more present just you know, when you’re when you’re early when you’re

You’re younger, you know, like like a lot of things are. but like, you know, the more mature you get, you know, not not only as a person, but as a lifter. and I guess the more injuries you you accumulate along the way, or it’s like, hey, that’s probably not worth it. let’s kind of try to dial things back. And ’cause at the end of the day, especially like you said, if you’re pursuing aesthetics, even if you’re not trying to step on stage, even if you’re just you know you know, doing bodybuilding for bodybuilding’s sake, you’re not being you know, trying to be a competitive bodybuilder.

you know, no one cares or no one can tell how much you know you can bicep curl or how much you can squat, you know, just based on looking at you. You know, like it’s it’s it’s all about just like getting the most bang for your buck with the workouts you’re doing and the weight you are moving. and I think that was that was an ups that was an appeal to me, for me, to an extent. it was more about like

Not to say it was like the journey, not the destination, but I I did enjoy kind of like the the grinding aspect of it. kind of like the delayed gratification sort of sort of thing. which I don’t know, I guess that speaks more to my maybe my personality than anything else. But yeah, that that was that was kind of what what drew me to it as well, yeah.

Ben (18:55.767)
Well, that yeah, that’s definitely something that I think is important for bodybuilding. Lifting weights in general and fitness in general. I think you need to have patience and you need to be okay with some form of delayed gratification because the results come slow. So you have to find ways to enjoy the process. And that feeling of hitting a plus one in the gym or, you know, adding five or ten pounds to a lift, like those are the things that keep us coming back each week, even if we know every week we can’t hit a PR. It’s like that.

Alex Payne (19:03.595)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (19:21.153)
you know, that what if and that trying to get it. And then when you get it, you know, that that feels really good. And you know, even if you don’t have the best workout, you still know you went in there, you did something good for yourself. and and that, you know, keeps keeps you coming back as well. Before we get to, I want to kind of start moving now towards when you started, you know, when you reached out to to Danny to work together for your first competition when you decided in your mind that hey, hey, you know what, I want to go from like I’m a recreational bodybuilder

Alex Payne (19:40.739)
Yeah.

Ben (19:47.864)
to a competitive bodybuilder. But I think what would make sense first before we get there, because when you’re coming to Danny, obviously, you know, you’re you’re vegan at this point. So I think it would make sense to talk about where veganism comes into this for you and how how that enters the picture.

Alex Payne (19:59.172)
Yeah.

Totally. Yeah, great question. Yeah, great, great segue. yeah, it it ri it really it was kind of like one of those things like

Those things you have like gnawing at the back of your head, but you can never really like put a put a name to it, really articulate like what you’re feeling. I always kind of felt there was like an ingrained sense of like just deep inequality in our food system. I mean, not even just our food system, I mean just our society in general, really, if you want to go on like a macro scale. but

Yeah, I just always had this gnawing feeling like something is just is not right here. and you know, like I was always just like I tried to be like, you p politically active, you know, in in high school and college, all of that, you know, vote and, you know

Not only just vote in elections, but you know, vote with your dollars, support companies you want to support, that you think you’re doing the right thing for the planet and the people on it, and you know, obviously the the animals as well. But yeah, it wasn’t really until I met my my my now wife, also named Alex, which is hilarious, but she really it opened my eyes to to veganism and

Alex Payne (21:22.988)
The main I guess like avenue for that, which is, you know, appropriate that now that we’re talking on a on like on like a a sports science, you know, themed podcast was game changers. I’m sure a lot of you know your listeners are familiar with that. I believe that

Twenty sixteen I wanna say. Gosh, man, I just feel old saying that. but yeah, it’s it’s been it’s been out, you know, making their owns for a while now, so it’s I think it’s quite popular and and kind of like a almost like a cultural, you know, touchstone for a lot of a lot of vegans out there. but yeah, that was that was my first real hard look at you know, what it means to be a vegan and

not only like you know, ’cause like the they they touch on like the the moral aspects and the environmental aspects of it, but a lot of game changers, to be honest, was more appealing to like kind of like that selfish part of your brain, like, hey, like,

You can go vegan for the animals and for the planet, but it’s also an incredible thing to do for your personal health. and not just like, you know, health in terms of like, like my blood work is great every time I get blood drawn. But like, hey, like I can be like a competitive athlete. I can move weight in the gym. I can like look great on a bodybuilding stage. Like that’s what really I think pushed me over the edge, ’cause like I said, I always had that like gnawing, you know,

sense in the back of my head, like I really should be vegan or at the very least vegetarian. Because I was always concerned about the planet and animal welfare, human welfare. But I think this was the final just push I needed to show like to just show me that like, you know, like you don’t have to sacrifice anything personally. If anything, it’s gonna be a posit like a net positive for your personal health and well-being. So yeah, that was the last

Alex Payne (23:23.576)
push I needed. I like, well, I have really no excuse anymore, right? I kinda have to do this. So at the time I was subscribing to this meal prep service. some of your listeners might be familiar with it. We just talked about this actually before we started recording. But it’s called Trifecta. and they have some solid vegan options, a little expensive, but you know overall I would I you know I’d recommend it if you’re in a jam and you just need you know, something quick. they might I you I’m s I’m speaking now like

I haven’t subscribed for like four years. They might have gotten better, but at the time they were decent. So I was subscribed to the, you know, the animal version of that, you know, with the steak and the chicken and the tuna or whatever.

and then literally just like after we watched that that documentary, it was like on our first or second date even, but after that I literally like remember we finished the documentary, or maybe it was even in the middle of it. I was like, I stop this, like I gotta I agree, like you don’t need to convince me anymore. I went into the app, changed my meal plan to the vegetarian or vegan version or whatever, and yeah, didn’t look back. that was the last push I needed and

Yeah, I c I cannot imagine eating meat or any sort of animal product now. yeah, i i in in case that needs to be said.

Ben (24:45.24)
Well, shout out to to Alex for, you know, kind of doing some activism there and getting you to watch that. It’s interesting because, you know, I’ve heard people say, well, you know, it’s it’s a tricky thing like as a vegan, you know, dating people who are not vegan. But I think, you know, there are a lot of people like yourself who, you know, in your heart that is something that, you know, you feel would be aligned, but you just need some more exposure to people who are doing it or the information that just gives you that little nudge to

Alex Payne (24:48.885)
Yeah.

Alex Payne (25:14.156)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (25:14.36)
To go a little bit further. and I th obviously that’s a lot of what we try to do here at Vegan Proteins, but that that documentary also was kind of I would say it planted a big seed for me. Like I started getting into lifting weights in 2019, in the summer, and then I remember that winter I washed game changers and it was you know, I washed it and it was like, okay, this is cool, it’s opening my eyes a little bit.

Alex Payne (25:25.39)
Hmm.

Alex Payne (25:28.846)
Mm.

Ben (25:38.799)
But I’m still, you know, I still had these fears around like, am I gonna still be able to build muscle and maintain my strength and all of that? Like even after watching that, I was still like very I had like a fear based mindset, I think, around it still. So I was like, I’ll just wait a, you know, a couple of years, continue to work on my physique, and then I’ll I’ll try it eventually. But then, you know, a couple months later, COVID hit and it was in lockdown. And I you know, during this time I started looking more at vegan bodybuilders, you know, like

Alex Payne (25:59.543)
Mm.

Ben (26:05.858)
the the OGs like Nehemiah Delgado and Brian Turner and watching their YouTube videos. And yeah, it just appealed to me. I’m like, okay, this is cool. But still, like, still that wasn’t enough to convince me until I watched some of the actually, you know, I watched some of the, you know, again, some of the more vegan for health documentaries, like Forks over Knives and like What the Health. And then I watched Cow Spiracy, which I think is a little bit more ethics and environmental woven in there. But still after I watched those, I mean I was still curious, but I still hadn’t like fully committed to making

Alex Payne (26:09.437)
yeah.

Alex Payne (26:23.776)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ben (26:35.788)
any changes yet. But then it got recommended in my YouTube feed that I watched the the greatest speech you ever hear from Gary Yurofsky. And I watched that. And then that was like the final push for me that put me over the edge was like, okay, now I’m connecting the ethics with the environment, with the health, and like it’s all making sense for me. And I didn’t really know what I was going to do in terms of like what my meals were going to look like or anything like that. But once I had decided and made my mind up, like I’m a very I would say

Alex Payne (26:42.774)
Mm.

Alex Payne (26:48.621)
Wow.

Ben (27:04.566)
Over time I’ve become less this way, but oftentimes like very like, you know, all or nothing or very like this is how it is. And so once my brain kind of made that switch of like, okay, I’m connecting with this messaging. You know, I need to be internally consistent with this. so I’m gonna I you I’m gonna make this change. once once that happened for me, then I was like, you know, that night I I remember I closed my I was watching that video, I closed my laptop and my family was, you know, in the kitchen and I was like, I’m going vegan. And I told all my friends that night and none of them believed me, but you know, it’s been

Alex Payne (27:09.034)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (27:32.739)
Ha ha.

Ben (27:34.097)
you know, six and a half years since then or so. And yeah, yeah, and that’s and that’s that. So, okay, so you decide, you know what, this is for me. I want to be vegan. what was that? I know you mentioned, like, okay, I you know, switch my meal prep over. So that was kind of a a a good first step for you. was there a pretty big learning curve when it came to like change, you know, learning new recipes and stuff? Obviously, you know, you were dating Alex, so I’m I’m sure she was able to, you know, show you.

Alex Payne (27:36.184)
Yes, hell yes.

Ben (28:02.28)
maybe some some vegan tips along the way. But I would love to know like what were you know what what were maybe some challenges you were trying to figure things out. I think, you know, oftentimes it’s framed in terms of challenges, but also, like you said, we gain a lot from it. Like we try new foods, we get exposed to new recipes that we wouldn’t otherwise. I know I got a lot creative with more creative with my cooking when I went vegan. Not that you have to, you know, you can keep it simple and keep it basic and it doesn’t have to be overwhelming. But I’d love to just know what that journey was like for you, that transition.

Alex Payne (28:04.685)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (28:22.734)
Mm.

Alex Payne (28:31.512)
Totally, yeah. Like yeah, you hit the nail on the head again, like yeah, like necessity is the mother of innovation and like not to say you really have to innovate that much these days. I mean, like I really feel like us now as like modern vegans in twenty twenty six, like we really stand on the shoulders of of giants, you know, so to speak. Like I I don’t want I will you never never catch me saying, like, it’s so hard to be vegan, it’s so hard to find protein, it’s so hard to do this, do that. It’s like

Man, it might be hard in some situations in some places in this country. but you know, like when you compare that to like how it was just like a short, like twenty, thirty years ago when like rice and beans was like the go to and you were lucky if you could even get that in a lot of restaurants or whatever, like, man, like yeah, I I I will never complain. but yeah, like you said, it was it was it was really great having a resource like my like my well then girlfriend, now wife. she could you taught taught me all the

The wonders of vital weak gluten and you know, Saitan, something that again, like I had I of course everyone’s heard of tofu before, you know. Y you know, y they go vegan. usually it’s, you know, lambasted as like, being tasteless or whatever. It’s like, hey man, like no one’s eating raw chicken either. Who what do you think that’s seasoned with? Like plants, you know? it’s like it’s gotta come on, it’s gotta everything gets seasoned, everything gets cooked, everything gets prepared. But anyway, yeah, I’d I’d never heard about Satan or like tempeh even.

so yeah, it was a real real eye opening experience, learning more about that. And then like I think also just by just by virtue of like like like what we were saying, just it it being like the you know, necessitating like you kind of innovating a little bit. Less innovating, but more just like learning more, I guess, about just like our food system and like everything that goes into our food and like

just even just getting granular, in terms of just like the the micronutrients, macronutrients, ’cause like everyone, you know, talks about like how you can be deficient in certain things as a vegan, like, you know, B twelve or D three, you know, iron, what have you. And it’s like, well those things are, you know, very common even across omnivores to be deficient in, but everyone always gives you gives you a lot of hell when you go vegan, like, I gotta make sure you’re getting your your B twelve or whatever. So yeah, it it it helps you, I think

Alex Payne (30:57.56)
kinda makes you pay attention more to those things. Not to say you could just like kind of especially these days, like with like all plant milks being fortified with calcium and stuff like that. Like you could probably eat blindly as a vegan to a certain extent, as long as you’re not eating just like completely processed, you know, food like vegan foods. Cause you know,

Obviously you could you could still put on weight and, you know, not have the greatest blood work or whatever as a vegan. But I you know, I would say as long as you’re, you know, strain or going towards like the more whole foods, you know, plant forward options, like you’ll you’ll probably hit like most of your micronutrient you know, goals. I feel like most plant foods are just naturally very rich and, you know, all the things that you know, make a make a rounded diet.

So yeah, all that to say, like it it was kind of it was a learning experience, but I think it was it was it was definitely, definitely it was for the best. I mean, not only just like the ethics and you know, the environment, the health, all of that, but like it like even if I if in a in a whole other scenario, like imagine like I didn’t stay vegan, like I I still think it it it it made me really focus on like especially like the like the micronutrients and the the the supplements.

side of things, like it it it made me realize you know, everything that goes into our food, like I was saying, and I I would have taken that away from the experience, even if I didn’t decide to to stay vegan. so that was a really powerful you know, like training moment for me, yeah.

Ben (32:39.8)
Yeah, I think vegan or not, you still have to put time and effort and thought into what you’re eating if you want to be healthy, really. So it’s I always kind of chuckle when I hear arguments of, well, you have to, you know, be so meticulous with how you plan your diet in order to be healthy as a vegan. It’s like you can take a multivitamin and you can, you know, eat a variety of foods and, you know, learn a little bit through tracking your nutrition if that’s something you want to do and you you’re gonna be just fine, like you said.

Alex Payne (32:47.95)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (32:58.754)
Yeah.

Alex Payne (33:06.325)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ben (33:07.886)
And some of the benefits actually of you know, since I went vegan, actually, you know, have been of course, there are people that maybe you lose some connection with because they either they they don’t get it or they push back, or maybe you bonded with them in ways that are not compatible anymore. that can happen. But I will say I’ve gained so many meaningful, deep friendships and connections with other people who are vegan as well. And of course, you know.

Alex Payne (33:19.789)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (33:26.498)
Mm.

Alex Payne (33:35.205)
yeah.

Ben (33:36.781)
You can do this with any kind of shared common interest, but I think because it is a minority, like there is this sense of like understanding and you know, just like fulfillment and gratitude that comes with making those connections because it’s like very few people in this world understand, you know, the fact that I’m choosing to, you know, make this choice, take this stance, even though it can be difficult as times.

Alex Payne (33:42.486)
yeah.

Ben (34:02.002)
of course now it doesn’t feel that difficult for us. Of course, there’s scenarios where we’re a little bit uncomfortable or maybe we don’t get, you know, hey, I’d love some more options here. But those are really minor inconveniences. and it’s really like oftentimes the social stuff that’s the biggest struggle for folks. But again, you know, I’ve lost some, you know, I’ve probably lost some connections and lost some friends, but the friends that I have gained and the connections I’ve gained, even if they’re online, have been super meaningful. and just like I I wouldn’t trade those for the world. So I think

Alex Payne (34:04.056)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (34:25.88)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (34:29.248)
Oftentimes people maybe feel like they’re sacrificing or giving things up, but I think there’s also a way to look at it where, you know, you’re gaining, yeah, as well.

Alex Payne (34:37.184)
Absolutely. And yeah, I I don’t wanna harp on that too much. I know we might have some more ground to cover, but like yeah, it like like you said, like some of the most meaningful friendships I think I could ever

imagine that I would I would make have been made since I went vegan and wo have been with other vegans. because it really is I mean it’s it’s what I mean it sounds even kind of just trite or whatever to say out loud or obvious, but like it’s the fuel of life. You know, like I like look just it it’s hard to kind of see the forest through the trees, but like so much of our society is is re it’s revolves around food and consumption and like eating out and like all the these

These food rituals we have, you know, like eating lunch with people in the office, have even just down to like having birthday parties or whatever, like everything is like around food, you know? And our society is set up in a certain way, and a lot of that is on purpose, to obfuscate the animal suffering and all that goes into our food system. But yeah, once you notice it and you

stand shoulder to shoulder with other people who notice it and decide to actually do something about it. Yeah, I d there’s there are very few things I think are that powerful. Yeah.

Ben (35:51.617)
And I mean, not to mention like going back to the connections we’ve made, both of us met our partners through being vegan. And like that the of course that’s a you know not a not a reason to do it in and of itself. But, you know, again, kind of just speaking to that idea of like you find I think it’s about like finding like-minded people. Like, you know, you’re gonna want those people who of course you, you know, you want people to challenge you on certain things and certain beliefs in life. I think that’s healthy, but s like you know, with values, when it comes to values, I think it’s important to

Alex Payne (35:57.774)
Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha.

Alex Payne (36:08.59)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (36:16.11)
Sure.

Ben (36:19.746)
you know, surround yourself with people who have the same values as you because there’s just gonna be less less friction there. So okay. So you decide I’m gonna be vegan, I’m a bodybuilder. When do you decide that you wanted to take it from something that was more recreational to being competitive? And how did that start, you know, with you working with Danny?

Alex Payne (36:37.462)
Yeah, yeah, great question. So I think it was probably around the same time when you were when you started out being vegan and and li and you were still, you know, obviously lifting and and staying true to that and and probably around the same time we were both realizing like, hey, like this isn’t a detriment. Like it the like being vegan and trying to be a bodybuilder, like it’s not like I’m starting, or like I’m trying to run a race with a a leg

you know, like like like tied or whatever, like my legs tied together, like I thought it might be. Like at the end of the day I think we both decided, like, hey, we’re gonna go vegan and not look back because of the ethics and like, you know, if I lose a little bit of muscle along the way, like, whatever. That that’ll be damned. Like at least I can sleep at night knowing, you know, I’m I’m I’m doing the best I I can I possibly can for the animals and, you know, the environment we all share. But

Yeah, I think at a certain point, probably yeah, around the same time like COVID, maybe during the lockdowns or like shortly thereafter, yeah, we figured out like, hey, like the the weight is still moving. I’m I haven’t lost any muscle. Like, hey, what gives? Like, what like w w all what why was what all those people were like the all the fear fearmongering and all all all the haters, like where are they at now? You know, like

So yeah, at a certain point I was like, I can lift more, I can recover. And again, this is like I’m not a s exercise scientist. I’m not like I’m not like participating in a study. But again, this is all anecdotal. But it’s like I feel like I’m recovering faster. I f and again, like I mean vegan diets generally have

you know, r equal less inflammation in your body, which like you know, we we need some inflammation to build muscle, but we also don’t need all of the inflammation to feel like we were so sore that we can’t work out. so like I like, yeah, I feel like I can like hit the weights more often. I’m still natural, obviously. And like it was I’m not gonna say like, you know, going vegan made made it feel like I had the recovery like I was on steroids or anything crazy like that. But like it definitely felt like I was just, you know, more

Alex Payne (38:46.208)
I just said yeah, I just like maybe not more energy, that’s kind of saying that that’s like a a a huge statement to make. But like I definitely just I felt more almost just like more like vivacious, you know. I just had more I just like I I wanted to hit the weights more. And I and like it maybe part of that too was just like as I say it out loud, like it was just like you know, maybe psychological, like, hey, I have something to prove now. You know, like I I think that’s also

an aspect that cannot be overlooked too is like it kinda gives you something to train for, right? Like, I mean I’m the type of person where like, you know, aesthetics and just like being looking good or whatever, or just like, you know, like like we were talking about, like the the more longer like term like things you invest in like working out, the the more long term like gratification stuff like

That can only get you so far, especially like when you’re going to the gym like almost every single day at five in the morning or whatever. Like especially when you’re comp like gonna compete in a bodybuilding competition. You’re doing you have like really big goals. Like you need motivation. And like I I mean, just to s speak for myself, like I don’t think I would have had the motivation to be

I mean actually I can say just straight up, I would not have had the motivation to be a bodybuilder if it wasn’t for the vegan aspect. Like I wanted to show people like, hey, there’s a there’s a a different, and I would argue better way to do this that is more just efficient in terms of like a numbers game, in terms of like like how I was able like hey, I was able to like get this amount of muscle eating,

a certain way that is at the end of the day more efficient than eating animals and animal products in terms of like the the carbon output, and just like the the calories that goes into to rearing like those animals for consumption. Like at the end of the day, no matter how you cut it, no matter how you do the math, it is more efficient like for the people and the planet. And plus like I can get health benefits, like

Alex Payne (41:00.778)
and lift the same weight and just be just as aesthetic and have the same res results, if not better? Like why why didn’t I start the sooner? Again, like my only result or I’m sorry, my only my only regret was not starting sooner.

Ben (41:19.832)
No, that’s really powerful. Just having that I can say I probably I don’t know if I’d have the same motivation to compete either if it wasn’t for the vegan aspect. I think that is big for me. That’s you know, I liked I like training. I enjoy the physical aspect of it. But like you said, you have to push your body to such extremes with competing that you have to have a strong Y. I think you you have to still in some way I think enjoy pushing yourself super hard. And again, I think that’s why a athletes

it’s probably more likely for like an athlete to end up in competitive bodybuilding than a non-athlete because, you know, from a young age we were taught, you know, to push ourselves and to try really hard and to be competitive. But I think it it gives it a different sense of purpose. You know, when it’s when it’s not a team sport, you know, and it’s just you, you gotta have some sort of motivation to to you know to see yourself through those those harder days and doing it as you know as a way to kind of show people.

Alex Payne (41:53.187)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (42:14.772)
that message, which is what the plant build team is all about. you can go check that out if you’re not familiar with that. That’s a team of vegan athletes who go around to all these different events and you know win medals and trophies and show people that you know you can be vegan and you know excel in these different pursuits. So okay you decide that’s you know that’s your why that’s why you want to do it. so how did you find Danny in vegan proteins and then how did you come to work with her?

Alex Payne (42:17.451)
Uh-huh.

Alex Payne (42:37.858)
Yeah, again it was all just shout out to to my my at at the time girlfriend, but now wife. she set me up with Danny. She had been listening and, you know, kind of was in Danny’s orbit for for years, listening to you know the Muscles by Brussels podcast and was following her on YouTube and yeah, she was just like the the the natural person. so first

yeah, Alex r reached out to Danny, ’cause she actually started on a on a bodybuilding journey first. and then eventually when you know I kinda got the bug to compete, I, you know, started with Danny as well. you know, and then, you know, one thing led to another and you know, I got invited to be on the the the the plant built team, which, you know, the honor of a lifetime is it’s amazing. And

And yeah, that’s kinda just how it came about, just pretty organically. it was so cool when when when Alex and I started working with Danny, you know, especially like from Alex Alex’s perspective, like listening to her her for for years, her and Jac Mo and then got to work with her. It was like you know, meeting your heroes, it was awesome. And like yeah, then going to all the the plant built events and like working the the vegan strong booth and like

Again, that type of activism, that type of it getting out there and not just posting online, like actually, you know, like pressing the flesh, meeting people and getting the the the the good word out there and you know, along with some free samples that never never hurts. that that stuff is is incredible. I always like always look forward to that and and yeah, it it’s been such an incredible journey and and and such a such a a blessing. I w yeah, I wouldn’t trade it for the world, yeah.

Ben (44:23.48)
So you start working with Danny. Now, when you start working with her, do you go straight into your competition prep or was there a time before that you were working with her before starting your prep?

Alex Payne (44:33.922)
Yeah, yeah, great question. And I think that’s something a lot of people might not realize, like just kind of you know, looking at the the process as an outsider, I had a even d not even considering like the years and years I was lifting without a coach, running my own programs that I either designed myself or I found online or a combination of the two. even before that, I started

you know, formal coaching with Danny, knowing that we we we had a a bodybuilding season in mind, but for like a full year, if not like a year and a half even, I wanna say like twelve to like sixteen, eighteen months, something like that, we just focused on just building. And like she saw like a few areas of my body, I think she said like my my my like my back and maybe my

my delts like she wanted to bring up a little bit. and yeah, we just focused on that and she gave me a program and I I ate in a you know, a a surplus for yeah, about a year to a year and a half and, you know, again I was tracking everything, you know, not as like crazy, crazy as I was, you know, during a a prep season, but still very, you know, stringently and

you know, going to the the gym, like really not like taking any time off, you know, like keeping the pedal to the metal. And yeah, I think that really that paid off for that for that first season, you know, having that that building period before we started to to cut.

Ben (46:19.512)
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that because I think a lot of people see like the end product, the finished look on stage, but they don’t see all the work that went in prior. Like you were saying, not only all the time that you spent on your own lifting for so many years, but then actually working with Danny for a full year plus to, you know, it’s so important, I think, for the coach and the athlete to get to know each other. you know, I have worked with athletes where it’s like we jump in and it is immediately into a prep and it can definitely

Alex Payne (46:24.161)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (46:40.942)
Mm.

Ben (46:46.412)
work just fine. But I think, you know, in my ideal world, if somebody came to me and asked me, you know, what would be the the best case scenarios, it would be that I get some time working with somebody, getting to know them as a person, working like you said, maybe on some of those areas that could use improvement. But I think it’s more so just building that that trust, that relationship, that rapport that you have, getting to know how each other function, you know, each other’s psychology, communication. because when you are in the stress of a contest, prep, these are all things that,

Alex Payne (46:47.47)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (47:13.412)
are going to be really, really important. So like setting up that baseline foundation of that relationship and you know, just having systems in place just makes it more predictable and it makes the whole process more enjoyable. and, you know, people might not need to realize you, hey, you sometimes you have to you know, do some slow intentional gaining of of weight in order to, you know, put on muscle and, you know, present your your best physique, get the best result. and that process can be

You know, difficult at times, but there’s also a lot of growth there. So I’d be curious to know, do you feel like in that time where that you were building before your prep, was there anything that Danny kind of outside of maybe I guess it could be programming related, but you know, do you feel like there was anything with nutrition or programming or mindset that Danny helped you with specifically that you felt like, wow, like I, you know, I didn’t really realize this when I was on my own or like

Danny showed me that I had a blind spot here. Was there something that you felt like you, you know, okay, this is different? Or like, wow, I’d never realized this before.

Alex Payne (48:08.694)
Hm

Alex Payne (48:14.688)
Mmm. Great question. Yeah, I mean

Man, I’m sure there’s more than I like like not thinking of right now on the spot, but just the first thing that comes to mind, is just like and I I know this will sound like silly or obvious or something that like a lot of people are like, well duh. But like just letting yourself recover. I think as as natural athletes and

also just athletes like with big goals and like a big motivation in mind, you know, like showing people all all the wonderful things that a veg it can be accomplished on a vegan diet. Like I think we sometimes start to lose sight, you know, kinda lose sight of like the forest through the trees, t so to speak. And I think that’s such a strong

reason to have a coach to begin with. Like, I mean, I don’t know how you ever coached yourself. That is a whole that that’s probably a whole other discussion for a whole other podcast. We could talk about that. But like I’m just going through like two bodybuilding seasons. Like I I could not imagine coaching myself. I mean, it was stressful enough having someone telling me what to do on a daily basis, a weekly basis. Like I could not do that myself. but

Ben (49:20.438)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (49:42.797)
Yeah, anyway, just like yeah, just letting myself recover, I think was the main thing, especially during the building season, ’cause like eating more calories,

meeting in a surplus, I’m like, hey, I wanna I wanna expend all of these. Like I don’t wanna get fat or whatever. Like I I wanna use these like for a for a reason, you know? so like my my whole approach was is like firing on all cylinders all the time. Even if like I feel like shit well I shouldn’t say that, but like even if I feel like bad, like I’m just gonna go like or like I feel like so sore or like

So like maybe not hurt, but like just so sore to the point. Like, yeah, maybe you should take a rest day. Like maybe like I’m never gonna say like I regretted going to the gym, but like there are definitely times where like you kind of realize, and I’m sure you f feel this way too, it’s like some there’s diminishing returns. Like I’m never like, I shouldn’t have worked out, but sometimes you’re like, Yeah, probably could have taken a rest day this day, especially when you’re lifting in like something that’s like not as like structured as like during a during a prep.

and you’re kinda just ’cause it’s fun, right? I mean it’s fun to like take pre workout, especially if like you’re going with like your friend or like, you know, like you like a a new a new album just dropped, you just got some new gym gear, you’re trying a new pre workout or s whatever. Like it’s fun. It’s fun to get there. and move some weight, get a pump. But yeah, some days it’s like it’s it’s like especially as a natural athlete, when like I guess I I mean maybe many more of your listeners would

be aware of this, but people don’t realize like steroids, like the main thing they do is they help you recover. Like they don’t necessarily like I mean, they just don’t like make you strong just by magic. They like they make you strong by like supercharging your body’s ability to recover. That’s why steroids, you know, different kinds of steroids, I guess. I’m not a doctor, but steroids are prescribed when you have an injury, right? To help you recover. Like that’s the reason. And then like people like think there may be different steroids like people take when they’re bodybuilding. But like no, it’s like that’s it’s recovery, right? Like that’s what

Alex Payne (51:42.435)
That’s what they do. So like not like being a natural athlete, like your recovery is coming from the food, you know, and the and the sleep. You know, those are the two main things. And like if you’re not recovering, you’re not building muscle. And if you’re not building muscle, like you’re not you’re not really like being a bodybuilder, right? So it’s like at the end of the day, it’s like that recovery is like almost as important.

I guess some people might even say more important than like the the weight you’re moving in the gym and like how many reps you’re getting, what kind of reps those are, way like it’s like we were talking about before, like when you’re lifting, you know, like all of that stuff goes out the window if you’re not sleeping, you’re not eating, you’re not recovering. Like you can dial all that other crap in like to a T, but like if you don’t have the fundamentals down, like recovery, all that other stuff is just it just won’t matter.

Ben (52:36.13)
Yeah, I don’t know if it was exactly Alberto Nunez, who’s like a well-known natural bodybuilding coach. I don’t know if it was his statement an initially or if I just heard it from him, but he said like bodybuilding is the sport of over recovery. and that is when we’re growing muscle, is when we’re repairing from those workouts. And so oftentimes I find with my competitive athletes, with my prep athletes, it’s more a case of me usually holding them back than it is pushing them. Of course, sometimes everyone needs a little, you know, kick in the pants, so to speak, but

Alex Payne (52:40.95)
Mm.

Alex Payne (52:47.798)
Mm.

Alex Payne (53:00.35)
Yeah yeah.

Ben (53:05.43)
Most of the time it’s me saying, you know what, we need to, you know, pull back here or do a little bit less, or you need to take a rest day, or we need to take a D load, whatever it is. so I think that can be a common experience. And it’s not always a case of needing to push and needing to do more because like yourself and you know, like myself, if we’re competitive, we’re gonna want to do more, more, more all the time because we think more is better, whether we realize it or not, or we just kind of get this anxiety about not doing enough. but sometimes, you know, the right call to make is the the thing that you don’t do rather than the thing that you do.

Alex Payne (53:12.342)
Mm.

Alex Payne (53:34.669)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (53:35.127)
so that I think that’s important. So, okay, you go on this build, and then you embark on your first competition season. So I’d love to know maybe expectations you had going in, whether that would be maybe not necessarily placings, but like expectations of the experience. You know, did you what did you, you know, think about bodybuilding prior to that? And then, you know, once you went through it, you can talk about the shows and and the

Alex Payne (53:50.222)
Mm.

Ben (53:59.485)
you know, the placings and all of that. if you’d like to get into that. But yeah, just your experience in general. you know, what you liked about it, what was hard about it, what you, you know, did maybe didn’t expect. and then maybe we can also talk about like the the post show period and how that was for you that first time around.

Alex Payne (54:16.408)
Sure, sure, yeah, yeah. Lots of great topics. And again, like plus stop me if I’m just is ranting ’cause look like this you could probably fill a book between the two of us with all these topics, right? but yeah, I guess like the I I really again, like, and I I guess you felt the same way too. Like, I don’t think I would have ever stepped on stage if it wasn’t for being a vegan and and really wanting to to show and and inspire other people what can be done on a vegan diet. And

Ben (54:21.613)
No.

Sure. Yeah.

Alex Payne (54:46.262)
I always like before that I kinda like you know, no no no throwing no shade at a at bodybuilders, but like I always like felt like it was like a little vain, like a little silly, like hey man, like you’re you’re in a speedo like flexing in front of a bunch of strangers. Like it’s weird, right? It’s we it’s a weird sport. And I think like just being part of it and I think you you see this a lot and especially like more of the experienced folks, in the in the natural and even I guess, you know,

enhanced bodybuilding sphere is just like a sense of just like being just self aware and just like kinda at at the end of the day realizing like it’s just it’s it’s a weird, very particular sport and just like having grace with like people who, you know, might not understand it or people who just like buy into all the stereotypes.

But yeah, just and then also just move just like not taking yourself that seriously. just like just realizing yeah, it’s just it’s it’s it’s a weird it’s a weird sport. I cannot emphasize that enough. Just how weird it is. Just sending just half naked pictures of yourself to not only your coach, but then like, you know, posting them online or whatever, like especially when you’re like, you know, being a vegan, you’re trying to like, you know, get the get the word out there as as a vegan.

And I remember at one point in in in prep, like Danny just had a bunch of the and this was during my second season when we were like really dialing stuff in, but Danny, you know, my coach, literally had pi like zoomed in pictures of like my bicep, my quads, like all of like w the different parts of me on her phone saved, like from week to week, seeing like how I responded to like

different like carbloading protocol like for peak week or whatever and like you show that to anyone else, you’ll be like, you have a problem. But then like in the context of the sport, everyone’s like, yeah, this is this is this is bar for the course. Like if you’re not doing this, you’re stupid. You know? so people probably don’t realize just like all of the and then also the posing, man. I mean like geez, like

Alex Payne (57:01.632)
I I mean I heard that a lot, like just starting out, people would tell you like it’s like it’s like I don’t know. I don’t know what percentage it’d really be. but like maybe like forty, thirty percent, forty percent your physique, seventy, sixty percent posing even, like it’s it’s very important. And that was something I needed to kind of really just like

trickle into my head, like the first season, like I I had you I had a posing coach, I went to posing practice, but it wasn’t something I like really, really drilled in on until the my second bodybuilding season. Cause of course, like the first season, like there was a lot of intrepidation starting out, you know, like I had never envisioned myself on a bodybuilding stage. Like hell, like I mean I was like overweight growing up, like, you know, I had a lot of just like, you know, social anxiety as a kid. Like I didn’t

not I cannot emphasize enough. Like did not imagine myself being up you know, in a speedo, you know, tanned and glazed up, flexing in a bun in front of a bunch of strangers. Like that was the last thing I thought I would be doing, you know, in my in my late twenties. but yeah, here we are. so yeah, all yeah, all that to say like it’s it’s an incredible sport. It’s a weird sport.

But it is it can be a incredibly self-fulfilling process. and I think for for like like results oriented people, like I kind of feel like you and I are, and people who just like really appreciate kind of like the the grind aspect of things and can like really just like put their head down and focus on a goal that’s like not around the corner, but just have that like that

propensity towards like delayed gratification, I guess. that is a str a strong thing to have. Also, being able to eat relatively roughly kind of the same thing almost every day with slight variations. If you’re okay with that, like hey, bodybuilding is is the sport for you. Cause like

Alex Payne (59:18.06)
And then again, this is something not to go off on a tangent I feel like I already have, but just like what you said about having a good relationship with your coach. You will discuss so many weird things and so much crap that you just never thought you would be discussing or like putting in a video and sending to really anybody, especially someone who isn’t like, I don’t know, like a doctor or or someone, you know, like very close to you or whatever. Not to say I’m, you know

I like very close now with my coach and like that happens over over several seasons. but yeah, you just you like like the things down to just like your your digestion. I mean like people I’m sure you can speak to this too, like don’t realize how much that matters like I think during a bodybuilding season. Just like the amount you’re and I know it’s like gross, but like the amount you’re going to the bathroom, like you know, just like that matters so much day to day, like big staying regular and having good having good gut health.

You know, like and like that’s another thing like I I think I I really learned a lot about myself that I wouldn’t have otherwise, you know, like doing a bodybuilding season, like asking so much of your body, putting it through like the rigor, you know, of a of a of a season like that. And you you it it makes you learn a lot about yourself, like what what helps you, what hurts you in terms of digestion. And just like yeah, those conversations you have with your your coach, especially like a week or two out from a competition, talking about how many ballots.

movements you you had that day. I mean like yeah you you can’t make it up like yeah having that rapport with your coach is so important and also just like the the stuff you talk about like yeah you you you would never expect it. I hope I answered at least part of your question

Ben (01:00:57.566)
It it You did, you did, yes, you did. And there’s no right way to answer the question. it was a pretty broad one. Yeah, it is a it is a weird sport, it’s a cool sport at the same time. It’s a mix of science and you know, artistic display, and you know, it’s a vehicle, like you said, for for personal growth and development. So, I’d love to, you know, outside of maybe the X’s and O’s of like, okay, I learned, you know, these things about about my body. Well, I guess I would actually be curious to know.

Alex Payne (01:01:11.405)
Hmm.

Ben (01:01:27.628)
you know, how did you handle that? Cause I you know, people hear about you know, body being or maybe they don’t. Maybe they just see the physique and they assume, hey, people walk around that, you know, walk around like that year round, which is not the case. You know, nobody walks around how they look on stage or next to nobody. so I’d love to know maybe just, you know, you know, being real, like what kind of toll did you did competing take on your body and you know, how did that kind of manifest also in the post show period? But maybe before we get to that.

I’d also just like to know, you know, after you stepped off stage, was this something that you were immediately like, Hell yeah, I want to do that again? Or were you like, Wow, that was really hard. I need to like think about if this is for me or for not. Cause like I was saying, you know, even myself who I, you know, I love bodybuilding and it was all I thought about, you know, 247 for for many years. And I still think about it a lot. after getting off stage, I was like, Man, you know, I need to this was this was like the hardest thing that I’ve ever done in a lot of ways. And I need to, you know, take some time to to rest and recover and

Alex Payne (01:02:20.054)
Mm.

Ben (01:02:23.694)
Consider, you know, do I want to do this again? When? So what was that whole journey like for you?

Alex Payne (01:02:28.012)
Yeah, yeah, great question. Great. You touched on a lot there and I’ll I’ll try to I’ll try my best to get to all of it in a in a succinct manner. but yeah, like I will say, after my first show, or I guess after my I I but during my first season in in twenty twenty three I had I did two shows. I did

an O C B show in in Springfield, Massachusetts, and then the Mr. America show with the the plant built a vegan strong team, which was incredible. But yeah, I mean after that season

You might not expect this ’cause it was hell. I w I won’t s I won’t downplay how hard and draining it is, but I really wanted to get back on stage and I one hundred percent had it in my head that I would be doing another bodybuilding season again within a few years, like after a solid building season. just because like I had no expectations going into these shows, like just as a amateur, just starting out, you know. and

You know, th this is just a testament to just the sport, you know. I placed first like I got a first place trophy in the first show I ever did.

and you know, once you get a first you you get you you get, you know, first in your class, you go in into the final and you you go up against the other people who got first place in their class for the pro card. So there were only two classes in the first show I did, this OCB show. So I was literally like one on one against the other first place person in the other class for the pro card. And like again, like I like I look at pictures of myself from that and I’m just like, What was going through your head? Like I was just like so

Alex Payne (01:04:11.152)
So like it didn’t feel real. You know, I had no expectations going into that. I had before they announced that I got a first place trophy, I got I I I got third place in my in the in the the open section, which again just goes to speak to like it just matters the judging, it just matches the judges there, it matters to who shows up that day. ‘Cause like it didn’t really make any sense. Like I got a third place tro or a third place medal during the

the novice, but then I place higher in the open, which you think would be the opposite. But again, it just matters your posing in the moment, who you’re up against, the lighting, all that stuff, the judges. but yeah, all that to say, you know, the first first c competition I ever did, I almost went pro. I ultimately ended up losing the the pose off and, you know, just got like second place overall for that competition. But like hell, I mean that was like

so incredible. I cannot ex like ex like just express enough like what an honor that felt like and just like what what what motivation that gave me to continue. That was like, wow, like I finally like it it made it feel like I I found my sport, you know, like I found my calling. Like this is like what what my body type or whatever wa was built for. Like this is like what what I was, you know, made to do. It really felt like that. so yeah, I I had no

no doubt in my mind I’d be stepping on stage again after the first after the first season. but yeah I mean those seasons are hell. I mean I won’t I won’t downplay that. I mean it definitely takes a few years of recovering especially if you want to do it right. I feel like after you you stop a season like

you gotta give not only for your your your physical health but also your your your mental health and also the mental health of all the people around you that have to deal with you during that that that prep period. I think something that’s lost a lot on people unless you you’re

Alex Payne (01:06:17.866)
either going through yourself or you’re very close to somebody going through a bodybuilding season. It’s just like all the sacrifices they have to make, you know, outside of the gym or just like, you know, outside of like mealtime or whatever. it’s just like missing events, like having to like you know, you can’t go out drinking just for like one example. If your like friend group is like, you know, like

more into like the social scene and going out to bars and stuff like that. It’s like suddenly like that draw is like really not there for you because you I mean alcohol is terrible for gains. I mean, again, that’s probably a whole other podcast, but like that is doing nothing for you. Like you you you should not be drinking if you’re in a bodybuilding competition or you’re in the but prep for one. It will only sabotage your progress. So it’s like you you can’t be doing that. and you know you you lose that ability for like that, you know, that social lubrication that that’s that you know alcohol offers you.

those, you know, those social moments. So suddenly like you don’t really want to go out if there’s gonna be alcohol. You might not even want to go out if there’s gonna be food involved. And like we were talking about before, so much of our human experience is based around food and shared meals. And suddenly

you have to bring your own, you know, your f your own food if you if you do even get out. And then even like towards like the towards the end of prep, like a lot of people, myself included, like you you’re just so drained mentally, like and socially, like I think people like may not realize how bad that gets, like in your head.

At a certain point, like if you haven’t gone through it yourself, and like I’m not just talking like a couple months, but like close to a year in in being in that state, and especially towards the end, the last couple months, like you will like after just like subjecting yourself to that sort of that that grind and that just like day-to-day torture, like especially when you’re getting close to a show, you’re just like, I can’t be bothered with it.

Alex Payne (01:08:19.382)
Like I n not I shouldn’t say can’t be bothered, but like I feel like you you you actively feel like doing those things will sabotage you. And then like the most people like the more people try to make you do them, the more you kind of start to resent that. And you’re like in your messed up like version of things in your head, you’re like, they’re just sabotaging me. They don’t want me to be the best or whatever, you know? Like all these things like you just like run through in your head and like

Yeah, it it’s people don’t realize it’s like the y you might see bodybuilders like two out two, three hours in the gym doing their their routines, doing their cardio, doing their posing. That’s what people see. And like, you know, even sometimes people might see like the meal prep or whatever when you post that online, but it’s really hard to kind of articulate or get the the real like i like the inner battle.

Across and I’m sure you feel that Ben just like having to tell people no or having to tell people like I don’t feel like doing this or like trying to explain to people because like no matter how well you think you explained it or how well you think the other person received it, it never feels good.

Ben (01:09:31.104)
Yeah, I think there’s obviously, you know, you try to set the contest prep in the best way that you can to minimize some of the physiological symptoms to, like you were saying, keep it so that it im you know doesn’t impact your social life, you know, to the extent that it could, but inevitably you get to a point where as you get closer to the competition, you know, last, you know, six, eight weeks, ten weeks, something like that, you have to be more more locked in, you have to be more dialed in with things.

you have to say no to more things. So outside of the physiological effects that again, you know, at the start of your prep, you’re probably feeling pretty good. And as you get towards the end, maybe not not as much, especially towards the latter stages. But, you know, just so that we’re actually putting some names to those things, you’ve got low energy, you’re focused on food more, you’re probably more irritable. There’s often this sense of just like not really caring about things, which can be strange. I know for me, like the personality changes to an extent were a little bit weird. Like, you know, I was just a little bit more

Alex Payne (01:10:12.279)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (01:10:26.694)
you know, shorter fuse. Not that I was, you know, really snapping at people or anything, but just, yeah, things that wouldn’t normally bother me were bothering me. you know, you just you I think you become just a little bit more sensitive, a little bit more fragile, I would say, as a human, a little bit less resilient. you’re really kind of beholden to your routine and and, you know, if you kind of break that routine, that can be stressful. You’re probably more anxious, you know,

Alex Payne (01:10:37.814)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ben (01:10:49.708)
your libido and your sex drive is probably down because of you know the hormonal impacts and of course you know that can impact your partner you know the the not going out can impact your partner and the people around you so outside of the physiological there’s also the logistical and like you said the toll that it takes on the people around you so I think that has always has to be said that like it’s not only you choosing to do this and I always try to remind my athletes that like hey you know we have to get we really have to keep this attitude of gratitude because

Alex Payne (01:10:52.221)
yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Alex Payne (01:11:17.709)
Hm.

Ben (01:11:18.53)
We have to understand that we’re making a choice to do this at the end of the day. Like w the people around us didn’t choose this. So we have to try to be compassionate and understanding, even in the moments where you don’t feel like it. That’s honestly what I think one of the biggest challenges of prep is you know, you st you have to still have to be, you know, a r you still have to fulfill your responsibilities. You can’t drop everything. You still have to be a good human being. but you know, as the in those latter stages you might have to lean on the people around you a little bit more or or likewise you know, maybe you you isolate a little bit more and you just have to try to set those expectations.

Alex Payne (01:11:23.778)
Right.

Alex Payne (01:11:41.016)
Yeah.

Ben (01:11:48.479)
best that you can. and then there’s the post-show period where now that you’ve competed, I think people think everything’s gonna go back to normal as soon as possible. But the reality is you still have to be pretty careful in that post show period because again, you’re pretty sensitive. your drive is to eat, eat, eat and you know, to an extent you do have to you know regain some weight, eat more to recover, to put on that body fat so that you can get back to a place of health. But that can be hard both mentally and

Alex Payne (01:11:59.725)
Mm.

Ben (01:12:13.408)
and physically for people. so what was your kind of first experience like with that coming out of your first season?

Alex Payne (01:12:18.722)
Yeah, yeah, I’m so glad you asked that ’cause that’s something that people I think definitely overlook. just especially when they’re just thinking about starting a bodybuilding season, they just focus on the of course the prep beforehand that’s the most, you know, seems insurmountable in the moment before you you you s take on a bodybuilding season. They think about the the you know, the weeks leading up to the show, they think about being on stage, they think about the posing, but a lot of like what comes after, you know, that’s not even considered, no one even thinks about

and yeah, I think I mean obviously again everything is gonna be anecdotal for me because like I don’t have a you know a formal background in this and I’m just you know, just just just everything I’m talking about is just from the experience I have working with Danny and y’all. But yeah, I I guess I might have handled it a little bit better, I guess, from from for what Danny has has told me, like based on maybe some other people, some other clients.

just just coming out of it and kind of just like handling the weight gain with as much grace as possible. And not to say like it’s not sometimes hard and some days are easier than others. I think when you have another goal in mind, it’s much easier to kind of let yourself take your foot off the gas and let yourself gain a little bit of weight.

like when you have it in mind, for example, like just using like after my first season, like we talked about, like I always like I knew I wanted to step back on stage. Like I still had the bodybuilding bug. so I’m like, hey, like I’m gonna take this next like two, two and a half years, whatever, just focus on building and just focus on getting stronger again. And you know, like as natural athletes, like we’ve like we’ve said, like, yeah, we need we need food. Food is recovery.

and if you’re in you’re in you know mass moves mass at the end of the day, you want to get big, you need to you need to eat big, you know? so I just having that like in my head, like knowing like, hey, like the the abs aren’t gonna they’re definitely not gonna stay the same. You’re not gonna have the same type of veins, you’re not gonna like the same vascularity, like you’re not gonna just look like I don’t know.

Alex Payne (01:14:33.614)
Unless I greet God, but I I don’t want to break my arm patting myself on the back that hard. But like, you know, like you’re not gonna have that, like you said, that onstage physique, that aesthetic year-round. Like that is I’m not I don’t wanna say impossible because it is very possible, but like you either have to be the most consistent, disciplined person on earth, or

You need to be on PEDEs. I mean, I’m sorry. Like, there’s probably not a not the some people are freaks, some people have crazy genetics or whatever, or just like crazy work ethics. But like at the end of the day, like, yeah, most people who look like that year round, they’re not natural. And if they are, it’s like they they’re d probably doing that for a reason, I would say. Like either they’re like an actor or like their their their personal, like their job.

revolves around that physique. Like very few people are walking around like that for for just their own personal gain or whatever or their own personal just health. because it really isn’t healthy just being like that. I just I just like j I mean just like just just anecdotally just like just feel it just being cold all the time. Like just being like freezing in a room that’s like room temperature and everyone else is like wearing a

you know, like shorts and the t shirt and you’re there like all like with like two sweatshirts on and pants in the middle of the summer. It’s like that probably isn’t the most efficient, like best way to be living. Like just from that. Just one example. so it’s like, yeah, probably you shouldn’t be acting or just doing that year round. but yeah, all that to say like, yeah, you’re gonna you’re gonna put on weight. You’re gonna especially in like

Again, this is anecdotal, but this is something I’ve heard from other competitors coming out of a bodybuilding season, especially the first one, is like your body just like it starts to put on the weight in places that like you might not have ex would have initially expected, or like you kinda it just maybe in this too just comes from you know, months and months and months of just like being depleted and feeling

Alex Payne (01:16:48.15)
Just like you’re like having your skin to be so taut and tight and whatever. But like and ’cause you I think you also just like store a lot of water too, at least at first when you’re just coming out of a a prep and like then you just get like the green light to kind of eat how you want again. Like you you you store a lot of water. Like that’s something I noticed. Like just start like doing card because like, you know, continue doing cardio after after prep. Like not

obviously as much as I was doing during prep, but you know, enough to keep, you know, my my stamina up and, you know, for heart health and all that. And the the most like just pronounced thing I think I noticed was just like how much more I I I I how much more my body produced sweat. Like I was just like

just dripping like after like a workout you know coming out of a a prep and like just like your body just holds just after being depleted for so long I guess it greedily just holds on to all that water, all of that. because it just doesn’t know like when you’re gonna be going into a deficit again. You know, that’s just the way it is, I guess. so yeah all that to say like I I just your your body goes through some changes after and they’re not all

Good. You know, like they don’t feel all feel good in the moment. They’re all mostly unless you’re like completely binging and like, you know, falling off the deep end and not being active at all. I think most of it is definitely, you know, in the the grand scheme of things, good, you know, for your body, even though like you’re not gonna be looking like a Greek god on, you know, when you look in the mirror, like anymore. Like you it I think it’s still just it’s good for your overall health. But yeah, pe

just you store fat in weird ways. It it it feels different. It feels weird. but I think just getting to a point again where you’re just you’re you’re you feel consistent, like with like how you feel and like your routine is just like sustainable again. And again, like we said right at the beginning of the the podcast, like it’s just something you could fall into and be consistent.

Alex Payne (01:18:51.494)
just finding that rhythm again after after a bodybuilding season is like really important. And and now, you know, I’m starting to get more into into power lifting coming out of bodybuilding season. So that’s my new, you know, motivation of you know, just just being able to eat and like like just knowing like, hey, my my six pack is like not gonna be popping anymore, you know, like

And like, hey, that’s okay, like that’s not the goal we have anymore. You know, it’s not all about aesthetics. Now it’s a it’s about just having really good lifting form and just having really good numbers and putting up really good numbers and squat bench and deadlift. And like that’s that’s a sport I’m training for now. And like, you know, that’s that’s what matters. And I think just having that direction and just having that like, you know, sense of where you’re going.

and trusting the process, I think it g it goes a lot, like really far into coming out of a season, a bodybuilding season, like treating yourself in in in the the best way.

Ben (01:19:55.563)
Yeah, I think you have to kind of work towards back work back towards that state of normalcy and getting back to normal in the way that you feel, in in the way that you interact with the world around you. And it can take some time. I think that’s just important for people to know. It’s very individual. Some people, you know, it might take them as little as three months to be pretty normal, but then you think you’re normal and then another month goes by and you’re like, no, I really feel like I’m back to normal. Then another month goes by and you’re like, no.

Alex Payne (01:20:00.951)
Right.

Alex Payne (01:20:18.743)
Hmm.

Ben (01:20:21.13)
I thought I was 90% recovered. I was 70% recovered. And now I’m like not so it can take, you know, it can take up to a year sometimes for people to to feel totally okay, like you were saying. and that second thing that you mentioned, just setting another goal, whether that’s I wanna, you know, judges said that my arms weren’t big enough, so I want to grow my arms or I want to, you know, just get bigger overall or get really strong or wanna focus on this other sport or this other aspect of my health, like having something else to focus on now that that stage carrot isn’t dangling in front of you, I think is

Alex Payne (01:20:21.553)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (01:20:50.374)
really important. So before we before we wrap things up, Alex, and thank you so much for your time, I’d love to know between that first and second season, was there anything, you know, before your first season you mentioned, hey, we want to work on your shoulders, your back, that sort of thing. Was there any kind of specific areas for improvement or was it just grow kind of everywhere? And then was there anything that was like drastically different with your second prep versus your was versus your first prep?

Alex Payne (01:21:04.557)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (01:21:15.362)
Yeah, yeah, great questions, great questions. Yeah, I think if I’m remembering correctly, it was my my back, my delts, and my pecs that we wanted to really focus on for the second season. And we I think we we achieved that again through deliberate you know eating in a in a surplus, you know, training heavy, consistent.

for a a good amount of time. Like yeah, like two two solid years of just like just you know, it’s not sexy. It’s not it’s it’s not like it’s not like dynamic. Like hell, I was running the same I think I ran the same routine that Danny wrote me for like two years. Like the same workouts every like five work I think it was five days a week.

you know, two rest days, which I usually did like the cardio on at least one of the days. same routine, five days a week for like two years. And again, like it’s not it’s it I had fun with it, but like yeah, par people some people just need to be like constantly switching stuff up, keeping stuff like fresh. And like I don’t want to say that’s the worst thing because I guess if that gets you going to the gym consistently, that’s okay.

But like if you really have big goals, if you really wanna like be efficient, like I think the one thing I would say is like get a good routine, get a good coach, like you have at, you know, vegan proteins and just stick with it. And, you know, just like keep your head down, trust the process, trust your coach. Like everyone here knows what they’re talking about, including Ben, obviously. Like just trust them and just keep your head down and and just push through it and like just

try I know these days it’s I know that’s easier said than done. Like there’s so many distractions. You open up social media, you know, like you like you get bombarded by all these different training programs, all these different training styles, all these different sports, you know, even if you just you just go to the gym and like the physical space, you look at somebody who’s jacked, has a great physique in the gym, you know, you might naturally think about copying his routine. But hell, he might be lifting around a shoulder or a knee injury. He might be doing

Alex Payne (01:23:38.529)
something very specific like that’s prescribed by his his coach, you know, and like if you’re gonna just start doing that, like you could be at two completely different points in your your lifting career, you know, so to speak. And like doing his routine and just dropping the very, you know, curated s you know, special program your your coach made for you. Like that could ultimately be a detriment because now like, you know, you’ve you’ve you’ve kind of thrown all that

That progress out the window to a certain extent. so yeah, just getting a good routine, sticking to it, trusting the process, not getting distracted. because at the end of the day, just being consistent and just progressive overload, move if you’re trying to build muscle, moving a little bit more weight than you moved the week before. again, if you’re building muscle, eating in a surplus, again, all of this stuff, it’s not rocket science, but like you kind of do need someone.

Who is just consistent, like again, like a coach from Vegan Proteins, just like that can help you through those things. It’s it’s very, very hard. Even though it seems like common sense, like you will lose track of it, like, you know, trying to do all these things yourself. At least I would, you know. I think most people would really, especially if you don’t have a background in exercise science or anything like that.

so yeah, I just like the the biggest takeaways there are just like, yeah, trusting the process, sticking to these things. and I’m I’m sorry, Ben, what was the second part of your your question?

Ben (01:25:13.698)
The second part was just k any were there any kind of like major differences between your second prep and your first prep?

Alex Payne (01:25:19.296)
Right. Yeah, right. so yeah, I think we already discussed just like li lifting earlier in the day, just getting that out of the way. that was just really big, I think. Just like just again focusing on consistency, what is gonna get me there or like what is gonna get me there, you know, close to a hundred percent of the time, and just keep me consistent and like that just that just was lifting in the the beginning beginning of the day and like like we talked about like

At first it’s gonna be harder, but like you gotta give yourself a little bit of grace, a little bit of time to adapt to to something like that. Like we’re all we’re human, you know, like even if like you had you have like such a a crazy work ethic, like and you you can just push through it, like you’re gonna run up to like I thought I could push through anything, really. Like I thought I had like, you know, just like that that that ability to, but like you’re gonna run up to some walls in prep and as I’m sure you could speak to Ben and like you’re gonna have to get get very

g gonna get like just very like you just have like stick to your guns, you know, you just gotta dig deep in those situations. And like I and just like for me that was just like being consistent. Like the falling back on just like the rigor of consistency and just letting that carry me through. because like especially like when you’re bodybuilding, like I think like just a lot of the the the thing is just like showing up to the workout. Just like

Just just showing up to the them be a prep, you know? Like I especially towards the end, like when you’re s when you’ve been in a deficit for so long and and you’re lifting, like you’re not lifting the same weight you were at the beginning of the prep. It’s gonna be a lot less and like it’s not gonna feel good. It’s you’re not gonna I especially when you’re like not having a lot of carbs towards the end, you’re you’re even not gonna get the same like pump you were. Like your muscles are gonna look the same, you know, it’s not gonna feel like

like just good to have a pump anymore, you know? Like you’re gonna lose those things and you just gotta stick for the k just stick through with the consistency. And at a certain point, I think it’s only like maybe two weeks. I think like studies have been done on this, like it takes two weeks to build a habit. You just gotta stick it out. You just gotta stick it through. And I know that’s like that’s not gonna get a bunch of like that’s not like you s you you can’t sell that. You know, like you can’t sell consistency. You can’t sell these things. that’s why it’s like, you know, they’re

Alex Payne (01:27:45.871)
Just the that just speaks to just like the current state of just the exercise science industry, right? Just everyone’s trying to sell you something. But at the end of the day, it’s like the stuff that’s actually gonna get results, like that stuff is free. Like this the stuff that’s proven, like it’s just it’s consistency and work ethic and sticking to a good program from a good coach. but again, yeah, like I just I don’t want to go too off off the rails. But yeah, the first thing was just like lifting at a earlier time, being consistent with that.

And then I think it was just like str really just stripping my my diet down to like the the studs and just like eating and this is something I I touched on at a pre previous question. Like it’s a superpower as a bodybuilder, being able to eat like very like not necessarily bland, but like basic stuff. And again, again, I feel like a broken record, but just

Consistency. Consistency is key here. with is when it comes to diet too. Like when I’m when I was talking about just like your your your gut health and your your regularity, like being like there’s the way our bodies work, the way our microbiomes work, the way the bacteria digest food in our bodies, like just being consistent is is is key for regularity.

and you know, just like not feeling like a bloated mess during your prep season when you’re trying to do cardio or god forbid pose and you’re like, I I look and feel terrible. Like that’s dog man, that’s that’s such a bad feeling. And I’m sure like we’ve all had situations like that we can talk about, like, but yeah, just again, I get consistency is key and and and the just being able to eat in just like

the most like basic and efficient way. just like the most no frills way. Like I again, I I think I guess like we can leave it on this. This is kind of like a like some more tangible example to kind of speak to that. during my first prep, I was consuming so many energy drinks. like I would go I would go to Vitamin Shop like almost every week and drop like

Alex Payne (01:30:01.481)
like $30, $40, $50 on just like, you packs of energy drinks. because like so many of them, and again, these were the, you know, like the ghosts, the zero calorie, the zero sugar ones. because you know, when you’re eating at a deficit, you don’t you can’t, you know, really indulge in anything like really sweet. And if you if you do not you can’t have very much of it. So those were a godsend, you know, like having just like not only like

were they tasty, but they also provided some some caffeine, some energy where you you you can’t get, you know, that that sorry, that that not only the taste but that that energy from the food you’re eating because you’re eating so little of it. So they were just like such like it felt like a cheat at first. but at a certain point, at least for me, during my my first prep I realized like

These and it might have just gotten back to how many I was drinking too. They really just messed up my stomach. And like I guess like again, this is anecdotal, not don’t have a background in this, but like I guess like the my my gut biome just like couldn’t digest the I guess it was the artificial sweeteners like in such like a way or at such a volume, like that I was drinking them, like it just made me sick. It just made me feel bloated all the time and like it just felt like I was like

kind of almost like sisyphs, like pushing like that boulder up the hill. Like I felt like I was like losing weight by like cutting calories and doing all this cardio, but I still felt like bloated and gross all the time because like I was consuming like two, God, even three of these energy drinks a day. So it was just like so much like sucralose or you know, all those other artificial sweeteners I think were just like s sticking in my gut and just leading to that, you know, uncomfortable bloating, that sort of feeling.

so that was like a a huge thing I I changed like between those two bodybuilding seasons and going into my my second season was just like I found a pre workout that didn’t have any sort of artificial sweetener because like almost every single one of those you buy on the market, the most popular ones will have they’re most of them are sweetened with sucralose and that’s something that just or aspartame. And I just like my body just some people can handle them. I I just can’t anymore.

Alex Payne (01:32:21.59)
but my body just couldn’t agree with those. And that was something that I I I needed to just like just cut out just for the sake of the sport and for the sake of being just feeling and looking the best I think I c I could on stage. and yeah, that I think that was something that that helped a lot. during my second season. I just like, you know, didn’t feel just like bloated and gross all the time when I should have felt like, you know, just like you know, lean and mean, you know. I was not feeling good.

so just like n just taking that out of the out of the equation and and really focusing on every little thing I was putting in my body and how it was making me feel, that was a big a big change. And again, I think that’s something that I I took into just like the rest of my life now. And now that like, you know, I I never really would have I think realized that I had that relationship with energy drinks or

you know, artificial sweeteners if it wasn’t for p like asking so much of my body and pushing myself to a point where I had to really get serious about like what I was doing and what I was putting in my body and how it was making me feel. yeah, yeah, I hope that makes sense.

Ben (01:33:37.473)
It does. Yeah. I think you get to a point in prep and you’re seeking, you know, some means of dopamine because you’re not getting it from your food. So you start looking for ways to get that from, you know, energy drinks or diet sodas. And they can help to a certain extent. the caffeine is a tricky one because then it’s impacting your sleep. And you know, I think there’s there’s these other strategies like, you know, I’m gonna eat the the sugar-free jello or I’m gonna eat like a massive bowl of veggies. And like a lot of these things, they can kind of help with the hunger a little bit in the moment, but then

Alex Payne (01:33:44.298)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (01:33:54.113)
Mm.

Alex Payne (01:34:01.006)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (01:34:07.114)
afterwards, like you were saying, you don’t feel so good. So oftentimes the best solution is just like, you know, like you were saying, pick something that, you know, you you enjoy enough, and you enjoy pretty much all food at that point. I’ll I’ll tell you that much.

Alex Payne (01:34:19.127)
yeah.

Ben (01:34:20.462)
and you find something that, you know, digests well for you. It’s simple, it’s repeatable. it might be a little bit boring, but actually sometimes having food that’s a little bit more boring, it doesn’t hit that like pleasure point as much as is good because you’re not thinking about food as much. You finish your meal and you’re like, okay, you know, that was food. It was good. You know, I’m on to my, you know, onto the next thing. as opposed to being like, my god, that was so sweet or that was so salty, or that was so yummy that like I need more now. So sometimes keeping it a little bit boring.

Alex Payne (01:34:32.757)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (01:34:45.602)
Again, this is specific to bodybuilders at the end of a prep. So you don’t necessarily, if you’re like lifestyle, you don’t need to take this to to an extreme or anything like that. But I think that’s that’s a good point to touch on. the only other thing that you mentioned earlier was just talking about with the early morning workouts, you had to like adjust your nutrition a little bit for that. So I was just wondering what you ended up doing for that.

Alex Payne (01:34:49.709)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (01:35:04.658)
Yeah, yeah. I think earlier, just having no like food in my stomach, I really emphasized I mean, obviously carbs in general. You wanna be eating a lot of lots of carbs before you work out, duh. but I think because it was so early in the morning and I had nothing in my stomach, like I wanted to have like a good base of like some, you know, fast digesting carbs, something like either like oatmeal

or something that could kind of just like provide some like weight or like ballast almost in my stomach to like absorb like everything else I’m putting on top of it. Just thinking like very strategic like that, you know, like very like almost like physical like that. so like I would have something like that and then also like a really fast digesting carb like a like a fruit, like a banana, like a dried piece of mango, something like that.

Something that like, you know, could complement also just like the other carbs I was having. But something I just like, you know, just more fast, something that would hit quick, that I could feel within like, you know, twenty, thirty minutes, you know, that I would eat before I stepped in the car, got to the gym and did my warm up and like then I would feel it. just like focusing on that timing too. and then another thing, like I just mentioned this I guess as we’re wrapping up, just like before I would like even like do cardio,

for like during it during the prep season, I would have like a a very small amount of again like a quist quick digesting carb. My favorite was just like you know, like something like eighty grams or like ninety grams or something like that. Not very much, like half a serving of just fresh blueberries.

just like a very just quick you know sugar source that, you know, fueled me quickly and made made me feel like I could j hit cardio. timing so huge for stuff like that. And like you don’t realize how much it matters until like, you know, you’re depleted and like

Alex Payne (01:37:02.794)
It needs to like it needs to hit. It needs to matter. Like when you’re in a surplus, like the timing, like doesn’t matter as much I feel, but like man, when you’re I you can speak to too, I’m sure, but when you’re in a deficit, timing I think is just like paramount. Yeah.

Ben (01:37:18.348)
Yeah, I think it just goes back to your body being a little bit more sensitive, not as dynamic, not as resilient. So you kinda like you were saying, you notice when you miss a meal. You know, off season you might not notice that as much. You you you’re kind of fine. You just eat more at the next meal and you’re good. but yeah, in the in the prep scenario where your body’s a little bit more fragile, you just need to be a little bit more on top of things and and give your body that fuel because you know it can’t pull it from your body fat stores because you’ve got none on you. So

Alex Payne (01:37:21.326)
Mm-hmm.

Alex Payne (01:37:27.66)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (01:37:44.216)
I guess the only last thing to really ask you about, Alex, was you mentioned briefly like getting into powerlifting, now in kind of your off season. Is this like a bridge for you between your next bodybuilding seasons or are you thinking this might be a a transition that you go into, you know, going forward or you’re not sure yet?

Alex Payne (01:38:00.419)
That’s a great question. And like, yeah, I w I can’t sorry, I can’t give you an a exact concrete answer ’cause I’m probably yeah, I like you said, kind of like in between, kind of like in a gray zone almost right now. I will say I I’d never I never got my pro card in bodybuilding, so that will always be a you know, that that carrot that is that is there that you know, I it’s

There’s a temptation to ch to chase that, right? but I think at the end of the day, just being like a a physical, strong vegan that’s like showing other people what can be possible, you know, as a you know, an ethical vegan, you know, on a on a plant-based diet, like

just like how powerful that can be in in like in in any in any sport whether it’s bodybuilding, powerlifting, crossfit, you know, what have you, I think that activism is is so important in this day and age, especially in just like a such a social media driven environment. I I think that that activism is so important no matter no matter what you’re doing. Just as long as you’re you know you’re being the best version of yourself, you’re leading with your value

values and you know you’re you’re getting yourself out there you’re putting yourself in positions that like you might not may not have put yourself in like uncomfortable positions but yeah again you you might not have put yourself into in the in the past like doing that for the sake of the movement you know for the animals for the exposure

And again, at the end of the day, like your for your your self fulfillment and your self improvement. Like it all goes together. It’s a it’s a an incredible a thing to to take on, an incredible mission, an incredible journey to embark on. And I I would recommend that. really for anyone who’s really looking for fulfillment. Like there there are so many things out there you can compete in.

Alex Payne (01:40:12.238)
whether it’s powerlifting, CrossFit, bodybuilding, there’s probably a sport for you. And again, there’s there are incredible coaches here at Vegan Proteins that are are there and and eager to, you know, help you along that journey and help you be the best version of yourself. So whatever whatever it is, even if it’s just lifestyle, even if it’s just being the best version of yourself for your kids, for your for your family, for your friends.

just feeling confident in your own skin. I think that is its own version of activism. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we we’re all like minded people. We’re all trying to get the you know, spread the good word, get that out there. And whatever you can do, whatever you can you know, however you can help the movement, I think is is is fantastic.

Ben (01:40:58.54)
That’s such a great message to leave us on, Alex. I don’t really wanna add too much to that. I I think that that’s let’s let’s let’s wrap things up there. So if people want to follow along with you or your journey, where can they find you?

Alex Payne (01:41:11.074)
Yeah, totally. So I my my Instagram is public. It’s my handle is Alex Pain74, A as an Apple, L E X, P as in Peter, A Y N E, and the number seventy-four. Yeah, shoot me a follow on Link or I’m sorry, on on Instagram I’m you know, I’ll I’ll follow back, you know, ask me where I get my protein from or gosh, what have you. Probably heard all the questions by now. so yeah, you can find me on there.

And yeah, look forward to interacting with y’all and yeah, thank you so much for having me on, Ben. This was such a fun time. And again, everything that y’all do is so inspirational and I’m every day I I’m so thankful to having found y’all and and you know, it’s an honor to to to be with with you today.

Ben (01:42:03.116)
Hey, the feelings mutual. We wouldn’t you know, wouldn’t be able to get what get to do what we do on a daily basis without folks like yourself. So thank you, Alex, for your time. I’m looking forward to following along your powerlifting journey. And I’m sure folks out there are too. So definitely give Alex a follow. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast. if you’ve enjoyed the episode, please be sure to share it with anyone that you think might enjoy the conversation. As always, ratings and reviews really help the podcast grow. with that with that being said, we will catch you in the next episode.

Bye everyone.

Alex Payne (01:42:33.327)
Thanks.