Ep 241 – Should You Get Coaching? (What to Know)

In this episode, Giacomo and Sawyer explore why coaches need coaches, even at the highest levels of fitness and bodybuilding.

They dive into the emotional side of coaching, accountability, mindset, and how having the right support can unlock long-term progress.

Through personal stories and coaching experiences, they explain why great coaching goes far beyond training programs and nutrition, and how the right coach helps athletes think better and not just train harder.

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TRANSCRIPT

[Sawyer]

Welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins. My name is Giacomo. And I’m Sawyer.

Welcome to the show. Today, we’re talking about coaches needing coaches. Sawyer, what dude?

[Giacomo]

What?

[Sawyer]

You don’t want to jump right into it? No. Oh, my gosh.

[Giacomo]

You can’t do that.

[Sawyer]

I need a little warming up. You got to get me going. I got to butter you up a little bit.

All right. Fine, fine, I’ll do the small talk thing. How are you, Giacomo?

How are you feeling lately? Terrible. Terrible.

Now you’re upset. Awful. I’ve ruined your whole day.

We should probably just come back and record this tomorrow. No, but what are you doing right now in terms of your fitness journey? I haven’t checked in with you in a couple of weeks.

And I know last time you were kind of just maintaining when I was around. But where are you at now?

[Giacomo]

Well, I’m more curious about you and this quest to get super lean. And I need an update because you’re killing it so far. Thanks.

Me personally, I’ve just. Yeah, you’re welcome. Been taking it easy.

I’m trying to find a solution to be less anxious, to be just as productive and sleep better. It’s all for the gains, obviously. My whole life is built around muscle gain.

That’s it. Whatever other ounce I can put on. So if I’m sleeping better and I’m less anxious because I’m more adapted to the stress that’s on my plate, I’m just approaching it in a different way.

Then maybe it’s for the better. We’ll see. I’m still nervous about it because I have a lot of responsibilities.

But so far, so good.

[Sawyer]

Well, that’s I mean, we’ll talk about this today, but I’m curious about how much of a role your coach plays in that and pushing you to do things that you’re maybe not as comfortable with. And we’ll see. That’s a big part of what I’m going to talk about, because a lot of credit does go to Ben for how lean I’ve been able to get.

Just because it’s been hard emotionally to get to this point. I know, you know, logistically how to do what I’ve done, but emotionally is a whole nother thing. So hopefully we’ll get into that today, because it’s a it’s a huge benefit and honestly, one that I didn’t give enough credit to early on in my journey.

And even till now, like I really didn’t think about how important it was to have like an emotional support aspect to coaching, at least for myself. I knew how important it was for the people I coached. And I do make that a priority for me, like to be a good coach.

But but having the emotional support has been a huge benefit for me, too. So that’s that’s, I think, a good like thing that I’ve been able to experience and why I can talk about this topic from experience, which is cool.

[Giacomo]

Have you been on a team when you were a kid? Have you played with whatever, like having an adult that’s either proctoring or straight on mentor, not even just mentoring, but coaching you as an individual athlete or in a group? Yeah.

Have you experienced something like that in the past?

[Sawyer]

Yeah, I used to play basketball a little bit growing up, and it was hard for me to push myself emotionally then, too. I wasn’t like the fastest of the kids and I knew that. And there were some really athletic kids on my team and I was always trying to, you know, keep up with them.

But yeah, I did have some coaches. And actually, funny enough, it was my dad and his best friend a lot of the years that we were playing basketball in like middle school, stuff like that. It was interesting to have your dad as your coach.

But he was kind of the assistant coach. The main coach was my dad’s best friend. I remember I threw some fits a couple of times because I wasn’t as fast and I didn’t want to do the suicides, the sprints where you touch the baseline and go, oh, my God, I hated those.

And I feel stupid looking back and be like, wow, I should have just done it. But I threw a couple of fits. I remember one time in particular throwing a fit, but we don’t have to get into that.

[Giacomo]

I’m trying to think if I threw any fits on the field or anything like that. Honestly, no. I was just really hard on myself.

Well, they tried to get me into Little League. Same thing. The father coach kind of set up situation.

But the second the ball started to get faster, I’m like, oh, this is not for me. I cannot keep up with these other kids on the field. I’m done.

I’d already got hit like square in the center of my face with the ball. And I was like, nope, I’m all set. I’m good.

I’m too pretty to do this. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but usually I would just be super quiet.

So for me to have a coach or a mentor to reach me, it wasn’t one of those things where it could be just like direct. Be like, come on, do it, kid. Because I would just internalize that stuff and take it home with me and just either beat myself up or like try to be better on my own.

So I feel like I was I’m who knows how that affects me as a client now because I have a coach and I’ve had a coach for a while for bodybuilding. But it’s like that direct support is challenging for me.

[Sawyer]

That’s that’s same with me, actually. It’s interesting you say that, because I think like when I talk to me and my fiance about this, she’s like, yeah, what’s really motivating to me is somebody like kind of yelling at me or being like, you can do this kind of thing. I shut down when people come at me too hard.

They come at me too front and center. I’m like, whoa, this is not me. It feels like that ball getting chucked at my face.

And I’m like, I’m out. I’m not doing it because, yeah, I don’t know what it is about that. But it feels like I would rather push people away when they get too in my face about stuff.

And I guess that’s probably why I’m a more, I wouldn’t say gentle coach, but I’m just more adaptive because I know some people don’t respond well to the in your face kind of attitude. Some people do. Like I was saying, my fiance loves that she feels very motivated when people are in her face because she’s like in her mind, it’s like, oh, this person believes in me.

So they’re pushing me. And I’m like, cool, I’m glad that you got that. But for me, it was like they’re yelling at me because they don’t think I can do it.

And they’re trying to motivate me in that moment to do it. And I’m like, I’m out then. You know what I mean?

So it’s interesting how different people interpret the same stimulus, really. You know, but I’m with you. I’m I’m more like internalized things, too.

[Giacomo]

And it’s just interesting because not to throw your Mia under the bus. People in general, right. People in general ask for what they want and they tell you that it’s a need of theirs.

But as a coach on the other side, you see their blind spots and you’re a part of the conversation that they’re having with themselves, not just what they’re asking for on the surface. And it’s tricky. It’s like a game of, well, they’re asking for this.

But what do they really need? And I feel like that’s where you worded it as adaptive. And I think it’s that right level of support and that right approach.

And there is no right way. Remember, Danny, I was in the middle of a prep three years ago and she was in the car with me and she did the same thing that you say Mia asks for. And she got right in my face and she’s like, I don’t understand you.

You want this. You’re not doing it. You’re not sticking to your plan.

Like, what did you think was going to happen? And I was like, thank you. And she’s like, really?

I thought you were going to hate me. I was like, no, I needed to hear that right now. Context matters, because depending on where my head was at another time around, if someone was to come at me like that, I’d be like, yeah, I need to hear that.

Tell me more. And then what do I do in the background? I start tripping on my own two feet.

I start self-sabotaging. I start doubting myself. My confidence is in the crapper.

And all the while I’m telling myself I could do it. I just need to figure out the solution. It’s a really delicate subject when it comes to coaching people, because you have to give them what they need, but also find out what kind of support you need to offer them so that they don’t destroy themselves while they’re just trying to figure out what the outcome needs to be.

[Sawyer]

Yeah, well, you made a good point right there, which was like with that example, you had kind of the same outward reaction saying, thank you. I needed that. But two very different behaviors afterwards.

And I think that could be a really big key to figuring out what somebody needs is like not just what they say after you challenge them or you guide them gently or whatever you choose to do, but what do they actually go and do afterwards? They feel more motivated or less motivated. They feel more able to do what they wanted to do or less able to do what they wanted to do.

I think that’s a really good point, is that that can guide your behavior as a coach when you actually see what comes of your coaching. It’s an iterative process. It’s not just like, oh, I’m a really good coach and now I’m always good with everybody.

There are people that are tougher nuts to crack than others, right? And it takes you a while longer to kind of get what makes them tick and what helps them and what hurts them or brings them back a peg. And you have to keep it straight in your head.

What kind of like challenge do I bring to this person? What kind of level of like comforting do I bring to this person? How do I contextualize things that they’re dealing with?

And what are they going through in their personal lives, honestly? Does it feel like it’s fair to challenge them at this point because they might internalize it and just get overwhelmed? So I really like how you put that.

Context matters and you saying the same thing outwardly, but then going and doing two totally different things depending on what you actually needed at that moment. That’s really smart. So I’m personally really curious about your coaching journey because I know you’ve had Berto as a coach, Alberto Nunez of 3DMJ for a coach, I’m not sure for how long, but maybe we can get into that a little bit if you’re open to talking about that.

Like when did he enter the picture and what have you learned with him and how has he been a help to your journey?

[Giacomo]

I’ve learned so much about myself. It’s been about seven years. Wow, seven years.

Yeah.

[Sawyer]

That is a long time. I know. So he entered the picture.

At what point were you at in your fitness journey? What were you trying to do at that moment?

[Giacomo]

I had just stopped powerlifting. I was working with RTS and I had a coach, Jim Eli there, who was getting me to close out my meet season. And after doing my five powerlifting meets, I needed to get back to bodybuilding.

Being a hybrid athlete was very trendy back then. I’ve been known to fall into trends. So I did both the powerlifting and the bodybuilding and I’m like listening, I’m a fly on the wall in 3DMJ podcast and they’re talking about how like specificity and they’re starting to nerd out.

I’m like, well, there’s different kinds of specificity. And even though sports are complimentary, one another, genetics, la la la. At some point you have to look at the fork in the road and say if you really wanna be really, really good at something, you have to stick to one sport.

If that’s what you want, that was my cue to leave the powerlifting world and make sure that I finished what I started. Because I was already at that point seven years deep, training consistently with the same goal in mind, several preps in, lots of shows. And I got back, I started working with Birdo and we pivoted.

Okay. So what pushed you towards bodybuilding as opposed to powerlifting? I’d always been into bodybuilding, but this is a funny story.

So with Plant Built, the powerlifting team was riding me hard as you often do with the team manager and the team captain. And they were like, y’all bodybuilders are just so weak, you can’t lift anything. And they were just riding me left and they were playing pranks on me.

They were left and right. I’m like, I’ve had it with this. I’ve had it.

I wanna prove all you wrong. And I was like, I’m gonna lift more than every single one of you. And I did.

And I didn’t get a single ounce of validation or acknowledgement. All I had was some massive tendonitis that was chronic in my right hamstring that I thought would never go away. Spoiler alert, the tendinopathy did go away.

And I walked away from the sport. I’m like, all right, you’ve proved it to yourself. There’s nothing more to get out of this.

Let’s just move on and get back to bodybuilding.

[Sawyer]

Okay. So that was always kind of where you wanted to be, but you were like in a competitive zone with those guys and kind of. Usually like that, but they really, somehow they got me.

They got on your skin a little bit. Those power lifters, they know how to shit talk, man. That’s funny.

So, okay, so you went with bodybuilding. You started working with Alberto. And you say you learned a lot about yourself.

So through Berto, you were able to kind of see how he got an impression of you, what makes you tick and what makes you work harder and push harder. And what kind of programming did you guys do? He just took you through several competitions.

And so he was doing your preps or was he doing like your off-season training as well? He was doing all of it?

[Giacomo]

All of the above. Okay. The mindset stuff, it was the most powerful.

Not just the accountability, having another human being to connect with and talk to that wants it as bad as you do. It’s been the mindset stuff all of these years. It’s particularly rewarding for me working with Berto because he’s a coach.

So he understands what it’s like to coach. And that really helped as well. In addition to that though, it’s been nice just, well, we’re also very opposite people.

He’s very type A, somewhat to a fault. And I am very type A, somewhat to a fault. And that push and pull has constantly challenged me as the client to balance myself out a little bit.

[Sawyer]

That’s really cool. So like through that process, you were able to learn more about yourself and talk about these mindset concepts. So he’s doing your programming and everything, but you guys most often seem to be talking about mindset stuff.

Is that like where you’re getting at? Is like when you guys are checking in, a lot of it is the mindset stuff. And then he’s like, oh yeah, by the way, your volume’s going up on this thing and change your calories here or whatever.

Like that kind of thing. That’s the last of the stuff that we talk about.

[Giacomo]

Again, it’s mostly the conversation.

[Sawyer]

Yeah. That’s so interesting. Believe it or not.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I could say, like when you’re saying it’s the emotional stuff, that’s the biggest.

I mean, I hired Ben, it’s only been a little over two months ago now. Coach Ben on our team, I decided to bring him on as my coach because to be honest, I’ve been a little bit ambivalent about what I want, but I know that I’ve been in and out of cuts over the last couple of years and I never really seemed to get to the point that I wanted to. And then when I got there, it seemed like the floodgates would open and I would gain all the fat back.

So I was like, you know, I know what I’m doing logistically, but I think emotionally, I’m getting a little bit caught up in the excitement around bulking and then jumping back into that to full force and, you know, the off and on again with cutting like the love-hate relationship I have with that again. So I think emotionally, I was being a little bit clouded about what I really wanted because the emotions were hanging over everything the second I did it. And coming from being a skinny kid, it’s very easy to be overzealous with the bulk and very scared with the cuts because the second you get smaller, you’re like, ah, I’m out.

I don’t want to do it. Like emotionally, it’s very scary, but bulks are like a little too exciting and then you get a little too much into it and gain a little too quickly. So Ben has been great.

And just as a friend in general, he’s been great at being emotionally grounding. So I think once I recognized that, I was like, oh, you know what? He would actually make a very good coach.

And I was actually between him and Danny. I was like, they’re both very good at like kind of getting me out of my head a little bit, which I really appreciated. So I ended up going with Ben because I was like, you know, Danny’s busy.

She doesn’t have to deal with me, all my crazy emotions. But anyway, it’s only been like two months, two and a half months or so, and I’ve already gotten leaner than I have in years past, which has been amazing. And he hasn’t really changed all that much, but it’s been awesome because every time I come to him and being like, dude, my arms are shrinking.

What do I do? He’s like, nothing, you’re fine. Don’t worry about it.

And I’m just like, okay. And every time I’m like, okay, yeah, I need to chill out. But yeah, I just, I learned more about myself and how reactive I can be, reading different signs, looking at different metrics.

What is it for you that you find is like, I don’t want to say the word triggering, but like concerning to you in the process. Like, what do you feel like it is that pushes on your emotions the hardest and you need Birdo the most for?

[Giacomo]

I get in my own way with the outcome. Okay. And it affects my process.

[Sawyer]

Okay. I’m very goal driven.

[Giacomo]

Oh. I can reach, I can meet any goal. I can make any goal happen.

I can do whatever it takes. There is nothing that will stand in my way. I can destroy everything to get to an outcome.

There’s no chance that I will not hit my mark, but will the actual outcome be what I wanted? Will my quality of life and my mental health remain intact? Will my approach help me grow and evolve as an athlete as well?

Will I benefit from having the mindset of reaching a goal as opposed to falling in love with what I’m doing to reach the goal? And over the years, I keep going back to that and the answer is no, absolutely not. Just I use the goal as a safety net and this is what I sign up for.

I’m gonna do it no matter what. Mark my words. But what I’ve discovered over the years is you wind up being unable to move the goalpost.

You wind up getting hung up on the goal and the outcome is not as good because you could have done so many things differently if you’re just goal driven. And he gives me pause. He asks the difficult questions.

I can literally map out a whole year and he’d be like, all right, dude, yeah, but what do you think about this plan? Here’s scenario B, C, D, and E. I was like, oh, I hadn’t thought of that.

Yes, but I have to do the next thing. It’s like, yes, but is that even the right move for you right now? Without being judgmental.

I’m being judgmental because this is my inner narrative, but he’s asking the questions in an open-ended fashion, giving me pause, giving me a chance to think as opposed to telling me what to do. It’s guiding with, as you put it, a gentle hand. And that can be hard because people want direction.

They can misinterpret that as flakiness. They could also think that you don’t know what you’re doing. They could also say that you’re not giving them what they need, but what you’re doing is you’re giving that athlete a chance to critically think about what they wanna do and how they’re doing it.

You’re giving that athlete autonomy. You’re also giving the option to be like, listen, if you need me to take this away from you or if I think I need to take this away from you, I will. We’re gonna get the outcome you’re looking for, but let’s see what we can do to get you to think on your own two feet.

[Sawyer]

So much you just said really resonates. It’s such a big deal to address how an athlete thinks because if you have an athlete who is very single-minded and driven like you are, but they don’t zoom out every now and then to see, is my mental health going to crap? Is my sleep going bad?

Am I stressed out? They’re not gonna be able to hang on to the results very long or be very happy with them at the end of the day because they’re living in a very unbalanced way. And so you kind of have to, in addition to helping them reach the goal, you have to encourage them to yeah, keep thinking about the other contexts that they’re and the other stuff they’re bringing along with that.

And with some other people, they might not be that driven at all and they might be a little bit more ambivalent, kind of like how I felt like the last couple of years where I’m just kind of like, yeah, this is pretty good. I’m pretty fit, but I didn’t know what the goal, the next thing was for me until I let the emotional fog kind of clear, so I think part of being a good coach is just kind of being able to read your client and the athlete and what they are missing and what they’re asking for one thing, they’re usually asking for the goal itself, right? They’re like, that is gonna be the thing or maybe they’re saying, I don’t know, I just wanna get fitter in general and they don’t really have a goal yet.

But the point is, you have to be able to read between the lines a little bit and see what it is that person is vying for and why. What’s the emotional reason behind it and what’s the stuff that keeps getting in their way mentally and then try to clear that up and make it very clear that they need to, I don’t know, it’s different for everybody, but it’s really, it’s a mental puzzle and I think that’s what keeps us coming back for the job and keep showing up and trying to get better at it because it’s not a one size fits all and it’s so complicated, but it’s also really fun to figure people out. I don’t know if you have a lot of fun with it, but I feel like I do when I get to that point where I’m like, oh, I’m starting to understand this person and what makes them tick, it’s a very exciting moment and then I lean into that. But I’m really glad you have Birdo and I’m glad that I have Ben and I anticipate working with him for quite a bit longer.

When it comes to your own coaching, I’m curious, do you feel like you create archetypes in your head or do you feel like you treat everybody like a case by case basis and you wait until you really understand that person until you start telling them who they are? I feel like there’s a point in the coaching relationship where you can kind of tell them what you see and it’s kind of gratifying for them to feel seen like that. How’s your process end up working most of the time when you’re working with somebody?

When you say a case by case basis, what do you mean? I mean, so everybody obviously is an individual and you’re kind of coming at it that way, but do you feel like you have a pretty good, I guess, like separation in your mind of like, this is, like you said, like type A personality, right? Do you think of people in terms of those categories at first before you narrow it down?

And then you kind of, you know, individualize it or do you just try to take it all in like day one, you’re trying to just clear all the clutter and just say, let me just like listen to what they’re saying and try to just do it the way they say or are you trying to read between the lines from day one? I guess is what I’m asking.

[Giacomo]

Well, I think you have to make some inferences. Yeah, that’s true. I think it’s important to let people do things the way that they do them, for one, because otherwise you might get a little too much pushback and that person might get a little lost, but I think it’s also important to encourage change and I think it’s expected too.

So when someone comes to you, they know that what they’re doing is not gonna get them the results they’re looking for and they need to do things a little differently and they’re open-minded. Otherwise, why would they let another person in? That being said, people have their own way of doing things.

You don’t wanna, I try not to reinvent the wheel. I try to create an enhanced version of who someone is and then like you said, eventually, as the conversation is ongoing, you make sure that they’re seen and heard and validated for who they are and you also point out ways where, you point them in a couple different directions, here are some opportunities to change.

[Sawyer]

I really like how you put that because it’s not like they’re coming to you and saying, I have everything perfect, don’t touch any of this, just give me validation. That wouldn’t be a very productive conversation or a way to relate to them, but at the same time, you don’t need to flip their entire world upside down and say, hey, you’re doing everything wrong because that’s also not true. Most people know how to eat and sleep for the most part, but you can tweak little things and then training’s probably decent if they’re already training and just need to change their programming maybe and their execution a little bit.

So I think that’s a really good measured answer you gave, which is like, yeah, you gotta make some inferences and you have to ask as many good questions as you can at the outset, but you’re gonna learn more about them and you’re also gonna be able to tell probably pretty quickly the things that need to be a little bit more of a focus than others. And I like that. I like how you put that because as a person being coached, it can be very unnerving to be just like putting your whole life on display and saying, hey, here’s everything I’m doing because then you open yourself up to criticism from all angles and if it feels like too much, you’ll just feel like they’re saying, you’re not doing anything right.

But if they say like nothing and they say, oh, you’re doing everything perfect, well then it’s like, well, why am I not getting the results? So there’s definitely a middle ground there and I like how you put that. But I don’t know, that’s kind of what I wanted to talk about.

I don’t know if you have any topics that you wanna bring up about coaching and the coaching relationship in general. I feel like the emotional aspect is huge and we talked about that pretty well. And then the degree to which you make changes, I think does depend on the individual and how far away they are from getting what they want with their current plan.

And of course, making sure, yeah, not like you were saying, like making them feel autonomous and they have some things figured out, but you can make some tweaks and try not to change their entire personality in the process.

[Giacomo]

I like that. It’s fascinating because when someone signs up for you, logically the thing to do is to follow the program that is laid out for you. But I don’t know how you operate, but I know when I have a client who I feel like wants to mirror me or is inspired by me and they want to emulate, like they’re looking at me and they say, I’m gonna do things the way you’re doing.

I’m like, oh no, that’s, don’t do that. Or they’re, don’t do that at all. Or they’re trying to make too many changes too fast and they’re ones that are not, they’re not things that are gonna be intuitive, natural changes.

Fine, like that approach where you make something fit so well and with how someone’s already doing something, it just works so much better. I mean, sometimes if someone’s really just hell bent on doing a whole bunch of things differently, I leave them alone. Like, okay, you’re motivated, right?

I’m not gonna take that motivation away from you. It’s not what they’re doing differently, it’s the fact that they’re motivated to do something. Does that make sense?

Right, yeah, it does, it does.

[Sawyer]

I really like how you put that because yeah, it’s always a game of like, okay, how much do we change at this given moment? And if you do overwhelm somebody, it will come out, even if they say, no, I’m ready for this challenge and yada, yada, yada. If they are not able to follow through, you have to give them less.

And that might be emotionally uncomfortable for them. But ultimately, if we’re focused on the right things, the goal and the process to which we get there, we have to be measured about it. And you can’t just say, well, all that matters is their excitement.

It’s also about their execution too. And if those things don’t match up, have to try to find some healthy middle ground there. Like for instance, if somebody is telling me all the time they want new workouts, they want new changes and things like that.

I’m like, okay, but you realize this will make it a little bit harder to gauge your strength progress. And like, we have to have these informed conversations because I don’t want them feeling like if I’m just giving into them every time they ask me for something new, that they’re not kind of getting the stability that they need, the gauge of progress that they want. And so it’s always a conversation, especially the more that they ask for something, the more you have to remind them like, hey, if we go too far in this direction, it could result in this.

So it’s a little bit of a back and forth. But I really like that you’re always conscious of who the individual is and what they need at that given time. And I think that’s the best way you could go about it because I think the people who get too excited about coaching people who are similar to them could make some errors in judgment in terms of thinking that they’re exactly the same and they need to go through exactly the same process as you.

You have to read the sides along the way to see if they’re actually following the path the breadcrumbs are leaving for them or if they’re going a totally different direction. But yeah, I think from how you’re answering these questions, I can tell we’re very similar actually, which is pretty cool to tell, at least in how we coach. Like obviously we’re very different people and we need different coaches, but in terms of how we think about coaching has landed us in a similar place, which gives me validation that the way I do it makes sense, even to people who have come from a different place and have a different personality type as me and stuff like that.

So it’s kind of cool. So this is kind of a validating conversation for me as well, selfishly, I’ll admit. But yeah, I don’t know.

I think it can be a really rewarding process to feel like you’ve figured somebody out and to get somewhere with somebody. But I’m curious, what made you stick with Berto for as long as you have? So you’ve had the seven years, you’ve had a lot of emotional, like personal type conversations over those seven years.

What makes you feel like you continue to need him in your decision-making and in your programming and things like that?

[Giacomo]

Don’t need him, I don’t need a coach, but I choose to have a coach. I like the process better at this point, at this stage in the game. Yeah, I could do this on my own, but I choose to work with somebody.

I think it’s a better process for me. And there are things that I can… Go ahead.

[Sawyer]

I was gonna say, what do you think about the process makes it more enjoyable to you as having a coach versus being like, yeah, I can figure it out on my own, but what do you think would happen if you didn’t have a difference? What would the difference be for you?

[Giacomo]

That’s an interesting question. It’s thought-provoking. Well, my fear is I would get a little lazy with my decision-making and I would be less flexible with myself.

I would just beeline it for the goal without thinking about the process as much. I think it’d be a little less exciting. And you learn from somebody else.

You can learn from yourself, but you can learn from other people too. And there’s nothing like having a… The way that I describe coaching sometimes is like, you know when you’re flying the wall for your favorite podcaster or you’re watching something and you’re like, I can get a whole lot out of this, but it’s meant for either a general audience but there’s something there that you can take for yourself because you’re smart enough to think for yourself or it’s maybe catered towards you specifically and you’re like, I’m gonna go down this rabbit hole. It’s for people just like me.

They have the same exact goals as me, but it’s still catered to a broad audience. When you have a coach, it’s literally like you have someone who is… It’s for you.

It’s your content. Could you think of anything more valuable in a world where you’re just getting hit with information from all over the place and people have emotional hooks to get you in. They produce things and they tell stories and they put out information in a curated way to reach different kinds of people in different kinds of ways.

They’re speaking to you parasocially, but they’re not speaking to you directly. So you get to feel seen and heard and you’re just taking the information again and again and again. It’s very emotionally…

It’s a great way to get emotionally charged up about something. Let’s face it, you can learn a lot, right? So you can say to yourself, okay, well, this is fine.

This is good. I’m a doer. I can do this on my own.

I don’t need another person in my life. I got it. Everything I could possibly want is right in front of me.

But when you have another human being in it with you that’s involved, and I know it’s kind of stupid to say this, but it’s true. It’s like it’s your own personal content. It’s for you.

It’s so cool.

[Sawyer]

Dude, you’re so right. Yeah, while you’re talking, I’m thinking about all the years I spent trying to glean what I needed from YouTube videos and podcasts and all these things. And I learned a lot.

I did, logistically. But that was still the piece that was missing was the emotional and the specific to me. Because the problem with the broadcasting nature of podcast, like what we’re doing right now, is that the more specific advice we give, like if we’re talking about a certain topic, like people who are, say, afraid to bulk, right?

We’re talking about people who are afraid to bulk. That might apply to somebody in a specific context, but then to somebody else hearing it, they might think, oh yeah, maybe I am afraid to bulk. And they go on their like dreamer bulk, and they go more intense because they didn’t know where they were at on the spectrum of afraid to bulk.

And I’ve fallen into that. Personally, I think most of the mistakes I made were guided by myself. It’s totally me.

It’s not like I’m blaming any content creator, but I sought out the things that I was like, oh, that feels good because they’re broadcasting and they’re saying, hey, here’s a topic that people don’t really know about and that sometimes people fall into. And I’m like, oh, is that me? Maybe that’s me.

And I’m making guesses about what I need based on the fact that I don’t really know enough about who I am yet or what I need in the process yet. So maybe even having a coach earlier on would have been a lot better for me because I think I would have fallen down a lot less rabbit holes of like what I really need to hear. You know, you’re like, yes.

So yeah, not that I’m blaming the content creators or blaming people like us who are trying to get good information out to people, but it’s very hard to know who’s listening and what that particular person needs to hear because they might delude themselves. You know, they might be 250 pounds, 40% body fat, and they’re listening to a podcast about us bulking. And they’re like, yeah, you know what?

I need to lean into this bulk. And you’re like, okay, well, that’s not what I would have told you personally, but people take what they want from it, you know, and you don’t have control over it. But in a personal relationship and a coaching relationship, you get all the context you need.

And yeah, I think I just, I got to a point in my journey even where I knew all the logistical information of like how to bulk, how to cut, you know, logistically who needs it. But I was fit enough and kind of in the middle where it was like, well, I could go either way. Like, what do I really want?

And so having somebody to balance ideas off of and talk to about like different fitness concepts and then realize, you know what? This is what I want. This is feeling like the roadblock right now.

Basically, it helped clear the emotional fog for me. Once I got a coach and I realized the things that were exciting me to talk about and the guidance and the groundedness that he was providing me with was so motivating. It felt like I had a clear goal for the first time in years, honestly.

And that’s what helped me get to, you know, you’re talking about like, man, you look so great. And I’m like, yeah, I do feel like I look pretty great. I could have achieved this by myself, but I think it was taking me a long time to figure out what I actually wanted until I hired Ben.

And now it’s like, yeah, I know exactly what I want, which is really cool feeling. So it’s different for everybody, but I think that, yeah, having your own personal content, like you said that, it makes so much sense to me because yeah, you could get kind of tossed around until you feel like you know what you need to hear. And you can go down quite a few rabbit holes first.

[Giacomo]

It’s interesting because I’m the one that hops on a call before someone decides whether or not they’re gonna sign up for coaching, especially when they’re individuals who haven’t hired a coach before or they’re individuals who haven’t actually had coaching. They’ve signed up for something where someone called a coaching or is in a group. But our client is the kind of person who literally can do it all on their own and chooses to 99% of the time.

That is the exact, believe it or not, that’s the exact kind of person that is gonna do the best for the coach. Not because they need to give up some of the control, but because they have the opportunity to put in the, you know they’re gonna put in the work. You know they wanna put in the work.

They’re putting in all the effort and all the work on themselves. They’re just doing it by themselves. So once that person lets someone else in, but it’s like you said, some people are harder to crack than others.

So it’s kind of this, it’s ironic because the person who is the hardest person to say, hey, you’re gonna really benefit from one-on-one coaching and here’s why, is also the exact person who should look for a coach in all honesty, nine out of 10 times.

[Sawyer]

That’s so funny, cause that was me. I, for the longest time, I had a bad coaching experience before Ben and it just, yeah, you get pushed away from for one reason or another. And also there’s like this ego thing of like, well, I can do all this.

Like I know all this stuff and it’s true. I do know all this stuff. Nothing he’s done with me has been like, oh my God, I didn’t even know about that tactic.

You know what I mean? But it has been a different level of commitment and clarity since then, since I hired him. And I can’t deny that.

So it’s been a humbling experience to be like, oh wow. Yeah, I really did need some guidance. I need some groundedness and I needed somebody, I need to pay somebody quite frankly to have it be their job to look at me in a vacuum and be like, what is this guy’s holding him up?

Cause I could kind of do the dance forever and people already be like, oh, that guy is so fit. And so I could get by on my coattails of like, well, I’ve achieved some stuff and people are like, yeah, he’s generally fit. He knows what he’s talking about.

But internally I was like, I don’t feel like I’m doing anything inspiring. In fact, it took for me to actually break down and hire a coach and like, you know, quell my ego. It took me being like kind of falling out of love with fitness kind of, I was still doing it.

I was still going through the motions, but it was like, you know, probably six months or so of me just being like, do I even like this anymore? That kind of thing. Like for me personally, I still liked coaching, but like doing the thing itself felt kind of like mundane.

Cause I think, like I was saying, I was like kind of ambivalent. I was like, do I even care about getting leaner bigger or stronger anymore? Am I even capable of it?

And then just having somebody being like, oh no, dude, you got this. Like you’re, you know, you could do this and here’s how we’re going to do it. And even though I knew these tools, having somebody kind of guide me and like give me the encouragement I needed at that moment was huge and I’ve just taken off with it.

So it’s been a cool experience falling back in love with fitness again, thanks to having a coach. And it’s been really fun. It’s been really fun.

I feel like kind of like, it kind of feels like a second wave in a way. Like, you know, when you first get into fitness and you’re like, this is amazing. I’m building so much muscle.

I’m feeling so like, it’s your new identity. Like that moment where it becomes that, it feels like that again, in a different way, a bit more of a controlled, like seasoned way, but it’s still more of like a new wind in my sails kind of thing. So it’s very exciting to notice that in myself and say like, I knew this stuff, but having a coach has allowed me to access more about myself emotionally that I wasn’t aware of.

And to pause and like, not be so reactive to things that I would have been more reactive to before. So for me, it’s been a great decision. And I really like how you say that though, that the people who can do it all on their own tend to be the best clients because they just can do so much already, but they can get kind of lost in the sauce or they can get caught up by one thing or another.

What would you say to those people though, that are feeling that way? How do you break through those people in most cases, Giacomo, I’m curious. Because I don’t know what I would have needed to hear.

I think I needed to have like a very humbling thing where I was like, I don’t even have all this figured out because I’m not even loving fitness right now. What do you think it is? Like it’s through the people.

[Giacomo]

You lose those people. Every day I think about how I can reach people like that because that is the person that looks for coaching. I lost someone like that last week and I’m like, gosh, I know this is what you are in store for one day and I hope that you get what you’re looking for and boy am I rooting for you.

So the answer is, there is no answer. Sometimes you can’t reach people like that, but you try and you hope for an open enough conversation and getting them at the right moment and getting the right reactions because love it or hate it, I mean you could practice stillness and be the Zeniest monk in the entire world and be so good at just being aware and just like I’m here and I’m not, BS, everyone reacts all the time and what happens after you react?

Oh, well I’m really good at feeling my emotions and I’m a good processor of my own emotions and I’m wonderful. Welcome to the world with the rest of us humans here and us me mortals, everything takes time and it takes time and having the conversation with yourself and I’m biased, right, because I’m a coach, but I feel like you can only get so far. It will only take you so far, right?

You will have blind spots. So having that conversation with someone else, so the conversation that you have with yourself changes and these reactions that you have to things over time, you don’t just have to focus on processing your emotions and sitting with things, you can actually get somewhere, like really get somewhere with somebody. That’s, to me, that’s the real win because again, you get to know somebody, you get to earn their trust, it’s more than just support.

You build a relationship with that person, you know what they’re doing and you know what their habits are and you know their goal and you know what they want to do and you find ways to encourage them to change and then eventually the conversation just gets better and better and better, just like that, right, as opposed to like sitting with being less reactionary and just like sitting with whatever you wanna react to or like process your emotions faster.

It’s far better to actually talk through stuff with somebody. To me, to me, that is why you hire a coach. Otherwise, just go get a program somewhere and see how far it takes you.

I remember that stuff. Remember like, I don’t know if you remember the Renaissance periodization days or like when people were just getting all like mathematical about spitting out stuff and you were like, people were following programs and just breaking themselves or just not getting any results at all. I was like, well, duh, this doesn’t take the person into account.

[Sawyer]

Yeah, yeah, no, I like how you said that, like with Birdo, you were saying like, it’s an emotional process. I forget how you put it, but it was like, you were kind of getting at the point of like, well, I could do this all on my own, but like having somebody in my corner, like it’s a unique position to be somebody’s coach and to care, like you were saying, he like cares personally about your results, like about your ability to succeed. And I don’t think people, I think a lot of people in this society and like industry expect that it’s gonna be mostly transactional.

They kind of expect that it’s like, okay, well, I’m paying you, you’re the coach, you’re gonna tell me what to do. And they think it’s not gonna be all that emotional of a process. But like, for me, the best clients are the people I feel the most emotionally connected to.

And I want them to win almost as badly as I wanna win, right, like, obviously, I’m personally biased that I have my own stuff. But to be honest with you, I think I feel very strongly about people like that I work with being successful, not just like outwardly and like looking the part, but like feeling like they won is the most important thing. Like for real, like they didn’t just like cave when it got hard or whatever.

And they’re like, oh, that’s pretty good. I mean, like they feel like they had a goal going into it and they got more out of it than they were expecting. That makes me so happy.

And whether they choose to continue with me long term or not, if I have a bunch of people in my rear view who are like, hey, that was awesome, thank you so much, or they’re still with me, that feels like great. It feels like validation for me as a coach. I’m not very driven by money or numbers.

And it’s hard to explain to people in this society where that is very much the motivator for a lot of people. At least it seems like to me. So it’s cool though that you have a coach and I have a coach that we know are emotionally invested in us.

And I think that allows us to get to new heights with those people because we trust them not to just be like kind of placating us or saying, hey, you’re doing a great job and you’re really not, or like they want you to win. And so they’re gonna tell you the hard truth. They’re gonna tell you the hard thing when you need to hear the hard thing.

And they are gonna hold your feet to the fire. Like Ben has been a little, not brutal, but very, very consistent. And he kind of, he knows me to this point where he knows like how emotional I can be about myself.

And he’s like, nope, we’re staying here, we’re doing this. And I’m like, all right, man, okay. And it’s really nice to know that he knows me and I don’t have to be like, oh, well let me just explain why I’m thinking this.

Or hey, let me just explain why I am this way or whatever. He already knows. I don’t need to explain it to him.

He knows. And that’s why he’s doing what he’s doing. Like it doesn’t even need to be a big conversation every time I just trust him because he knows me.

And that’s why I think having the combination of having great coaches at my disposal and then being humbled by the fact that I didn’t really love fitness anymore and I didn’t know what I was shooting for, when that came the perfect storm, that’s when I was like, all right, I need a coach. So I think you’re right about the timing has to be right. Do you think like people need to be humbled a little bit before like those people who are like, I can do it all myself, like how I was?

Do you feel like they need to be humbled a little bit by life or their journey to be like able to be gotten to? Like kind of how like veganism was, no?

[Giacomo]

I hope it’s more a matter of being at the right place at the right time, feeling it and being open-minded and saying I’m gonna take a leap of faith here and believe in this process and give it a shot. And if they get burned by someone else who didn’t offer them the right kind of coaching or an approach that was helpful or thorough enough or if they weren’t ready, that they don’t get too caught up in blaming or regret and resentment or putting themselves down for not, and also still taking responsibility for them not being ready regardless. Like it’s kind of like the perfect storm, if you will, for someone, whether they’ve been in it or whether they’re thinking about it to just literally, I think it’s less about being humbled, Sawyer, and more about being in the right place at the right time and having the right moment and just being open-minded and being like, well, you know what?

What’s the worst that could happen right now?

[Sawyer]

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I shouldn’t probably use the word humbled. I’m talking about in my situation, so I’m gonna use a little harsher language.

But I think, yeah, the fact remains that you have to be in the right setting or kind of open. You have to become open to something. I think that’s probably a better way of putting it because you’ve had experiences where you know all these different tools, you’ve been using them for yourself, you know how to do changes to your programming and all this stuff, but there’s something intangible that you can’t get on your own.

Like there’s just a certain thing that you’re lacking on your own and you don’t necessarily know what it is yet, but it makes you more open to accepting help. And I think that’s a really cool place to be because it means that you are, yes, you’re like, yes, I’m knowledgeable, yes, I know all this stuff, but I’m not perfect. And having a second opinion and from somebody who’s a little bit, at least emotionally, not me, at least, yes, they care a lot, but they’re not gonna be as colored by my own impression of myself because we’re always our own harshest critics, right?

To give me some good advice that I might not have thought of. I always give this example when I think of it because I remember one time when I was in the worst of my body dysmorphia has ever been. I was in the gym and it was a big gym with tons of mirrors and I remember spotting myself in the mirror across the gym and being like, that dude has a pretty good physique before I realized it was me.

And then I realized it was me and then immediately started critiquing that image. And I remember thinking, huh, that’s weird. So I think it really did teach me in a split second how much harsher I am on myself than I am on the people that I look at.

And I think that was probably one of the experiences that got me to chill out a little bit about that. I just give that example to people all the time because they’re not able to see themselves as clearly as other people can see them sometimes or it’s all subjective but it’s helpful to have other people looking at it.

[Giacomo]

And all that stuff doesn’t mean that we get, the other thing I find that when people are listening or they come to us and they’re like, oh, but the bodybuilding thing and how y’all look at your body and this and that and how much attention you pay to the physical and they have this worry, but you don’t, again, a good coach is not just gonna meet you where you’re at, they’re gonna give you what you need.

And we have conversations all the time that have nothing to do with what people actually look like, even if they want. I find that when someone really wants to work on their, they wanna work on their appearance, they wanna work on their size of the muscle, their muscles, their shape and all that, I find ways to get them to take the emphasis and the focus off of what they look like. Sometimes there’s this fear of, because we have some bodybuilders on this team, but a good coach meets, not only meets you where you’re at, they give you what you need and we don’t only focus on people’s appearances.

And honestly, when someone is very interested in working on the way that they look, their size of the muscles, their shape and all that, I personally spend a fair amount of time getting them to not focus on that and not pay attention to that. And the thing that I think about is just like you have one life. Imagine spending your entire life in his body bag, having all of that insecurity and all that shame and all that worry and all that concern on what you look like.

Because at the end of the day, when you’re in your, say, if we’re lucky enough to make it there, right, 60s, 70s, 80s or whatever, you’re gonna look back in your 80s and be like, I wish I paid more attention to what I look like. You’re gonna be like, what was I thinking? That’s a good point.

Not to say you won’t be thinking about that in your 80s because there are plenty of people who definitely care about the way that they look no matter what their age is. But my point is even those who want to focus on appearance, there is all the more reason to not get too hung up on it while still not being afraid to focus on it.

[Sawyer]

You’re totally right. One of the things that helped me get out of the body dysmorphia stuff was focusing on some external strength and other things. So I think you’re totally right.

Pulling some focus away from that can be a healthy thing for a lot of people. But yeah, I think that’s pretty much all I wanted to cover today. I don’t know, how do you feel?

I feel like we did a pretty good job covering like coaching the emotional aspect, the kind of people who do well with it even though they might not think they would, that kind of thing. Really cool. Why don’t you take us home, Soar?

Yeah, well, thank you guys for listening to this episode of Muscles by Brussels Radio. Thank you guys for subscribing and listening, following along to everything we have to say. If anything resonated with you guys or you want to send this to a friend, please do that.

Please rate us on any apps that you’re using to listen to this on. We look forward to talking with you guys again. I’m Coach Sawyer.

And I’m Coach Giacomo. And we’ll see you guys next time. Bye.