In this episode of Muscles by Brussels Radio, Ben and Giacomo dive deep into how life transitions, from new relationships to career shifts, can reshape your fitness goals.
They explore how to adjust expectations with compassion, find balance between ambition and sustainability, and redefine what progress means in every phase of life.
Whether you’re a vegan athlete or someone just trying to stay consistent, this episode will help you set realistic goals that evolve with you.
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Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Russell’s Radio. My name is Ben. And I’m Giacomo.
Welcome to the show. All right, Giacomo, today we’ve got a good topic in store. But before we get to that, I would love to know what is new on your end?
Where have you been? What have you been doing? I know you and Danny just had a nice weekend away, unplug, relax, which is not your MO.
So how was that?
[Giacomo]Well, I asked Danny if anyone commented because I’m used to the algorithm feeding me cat dad stuff where the cat steals all of the wife’s affection. And I was like, did anyone say anything? And she’s like, no.
I was like, oh, too bad. Because she posted a picture of me in a hammock with Xander. I was just cradling him.
[Ben]That was so cute. It was so cute.
[Giacomo]And all I heard was Sawyer say that I look tired, which makes sense. Because usually I’m just a bundle of nerves and focus on what I’m doing. And I was completely checked out from everything.
Like, do not bother me. It’s me with my metaphorical umbrella in my drink. Except I’m camping and I’m in solitude in some private land.
And it was wonderful. It was much needed. Much needed, Ben.
[Ben]I’m glad. What did you guys end up doing while you were there? Did you do any hiking?
Was it kind of just relaxing? How did you fill the time?
[Giacomo]Usually we take turns making sure that we can create as many fillable hours in the day as possible, which our clocks are a little different and we’re just constantly available for whatever. This time around, instead of living life like that and working our butts off, we took turns napping. So when I was done napping, she was done napping.
I swear, Ben, we must have each slept for around 12 hours a day. So yeah, we did a couple light things like some hiking and we cooked up some good grub and hung out by the campfire and asked ourselves some really important questions and shook up some good conversations and just chilled. What you would expect with a 10-year anniversary.
But we also slept a lot.
[Ben]It sounds nice. It sounds exactly what you guys needed.
[Giacomo]What about you, buddy? What are you up to? I know that you have an apartment, you are in a relationship, you have a cat now.
You’re doing the typical Ben thing where I turn around and you’ve turned life upside down and you’ve flipped the script and no one knows what you’re doing, except this time it seems like this is going to be more of a constant in your life.
[Ben]I think so. It’s funny because I don’t think that used to be a typical Ben thing. I think it sounds weird to blame it on bodybuilding prep, but I think it made me a more erratic person, a more impulsive person.
So it does seem like in the past year or two, things have been changing quite a lot. But yes, lots of things have changed recently and things have changed for the better. And I am adjusting to all of that, to being a cat dad, like you said.
And now I spend most of my days here working at home. And so he’s with me and he loves to jump up on the table, especially when I’m recording something or sending a video. That’s his favorite time to jump up and walk right in front of the camera.
So I feel like him and Xander would be best buddies, to be honest. He kind of reminds me. Very affectionate, always wanting to cuddle or get attention.
So I’m enjoying it quite a bit. I’m going to New York this weekend because my girlfriend is a chef. And so I’m working at a wedding catering event with her.
They needed extra hands. So I’m like, why not? Trip to New York, do a little bit of catering work.
Why not? One-off sort of thing. And I’m going to see some friends while I’m there.
And we’re actually planning to move to New York in about a year. So it’ll be a good little, like, I don’t want to, I don’t want to jot that on you right now, Giacomo, but that’s, that’s been the plan. That’s been the plan.
So this is what I’m talking about. Well, at least I’m giving you some lead time so you’re not caught off guard, you know?
[Giacomo]What other surprises are you going to send our way as you and Sawyer take over this podcast? I have no words. I don’t even know.
But I know this isn’t what we’re talking about today. And I know this is your topic. So why don’t you lead the way and tell the audience what you want to open up a conversation about with me and what we get to think about together and talk about while we hang out together today?
[Ben]Well, as you said, Sawyer and I have been brainstorming some topics for the podcast, things that we feel like our viewers would benefit from, and kind of choosing what members of the Vegan Proteins team we want to talk about certain topics. And this was one that we came up with because we feel like it comes up a lot with the clients that we work with all the time. And that is managing expectations and understanding that your expectations and your standards for yourself, it’s okay for them to fluctuate based on your goals.
And more importantly, based on whatever context you have for your life at that time. So we were kind of going back and forth about some common things that we see, one of them being clients who come to us with certain goals and maybe ways that they’ve done things in the past and really feeling down about the fact that they haven’t been able to get the results that they wanted, even though they’re doing things that they’ve been successful with in the past. Or we might get somebody who maybe they see someone who is achieving the things that they want to achieve, but they have a completely different life than that person.
So maybe they are, you know, this client, maybe they’re 40s, 50s with a couple kids, they’ve got a family, you know, a nine to five, and they want to get to, you know, 12% body fat with a bunch of muscle mass. And they’re looking at some 20 something year old college student who’s got all the time in the world and trying to compare themselves and say, you know, why can’t I do that? Or why can’t I do that?
So I thought it was just important to have this discussion and have a conversation about what does it mean to set quote unquote realistic expectations or standards for yourself? Does that mean that you can’t, you know, high, you know, aim, aim for the whatever, shoot for the stars and still really have high standards for yourself? How do you balance having compassion and like, you know, understanding, hey, I might not be able to do this right now.
But that doesn’t mean I won’t be able to do it in the future. There’s a lot of different ways that we can take this. But I’d love to hear from you, your experience working with folks, when you get somebody coming to you, or you’re having a conversation with someone and they have these really big goals.
How do you and, you know, maybe their life circumstances, maybe they either have a lot of time or they don’t have a lot of time. How do you kind of help them figure out, you know, what is realistic for us to kind of work towards? And if that changes, how do you have that conversation too of like, hey, we set this goal for ourself, but maybe right now it just isn’t the time to really push for that.
Because that can be hard.
[Giacomo]Well, this is a very difficult conversation to have with a client. And I think it’s a case by case basis, a person by person basis. And I think it changes what you think you know about a client or some, and or someone and what you eventually find out about them, including their goal, what it means to them, what their motivates them, how to talk to them, because there’s what you think is appropriate.
And then what you, what you think is the logical explanation, like this should be our expectation. This is what you’re capable of. This is what, and it’s your responsibility to tell them, hey, this is what you’re capable of.
Genetically, this is what’s, this is what’s probably going to happen based on what you’re doing. Lifestyle wise, depending on your stress levels and how much you could prioritize, this is probably what’s going to happen based on the amount of time they want to take to get somewhere. Like there’s all kinds of variables.
You could just look at it from a bird’s eye view objectively and be like, yeah, I’m going to hand it to you on a silver platter. This is what’s, and it’s incumbent upon you as a coach to do that. But when do you have that conversation?
Do you dribble out over time? Do you avoid it completely? Do you do it up front?
And sometimes the conversation doesn’t land well or completely misses. And sometimes it, sometimes it does. It’s like anything else.
You’re dealing with people. It’s some of it’s guesswork, but I will say you can identify certain kinds of personalities and certain kinds of hopes and dreams that people have when they speak to you. It’s like if someone has the stars in their eyes and they have a hero sort of mindset and they’re like, I don’t care about a genetic ceiling.
I don’t care about how busy I am. I want to grind. I want to hustle.
This is what I want. I want 20 pounds of muscle in two years. And you’re like, okay, I can work with this person and say, you’re going to look like you put on 20 pounds of muscle when I’m done with you, but you’re going to probably put on about five pounds of muscle.
Now I know that conceptually, but am I going to say that to that client? Absolutely not. So this is where it’s like sometimes taking the most logical and space sensible approach to communication, saying it exactly where it is, is good.
And sometimes it’s bad. And that’s just one example. And I’ve missed many times in the past and I’ve landed many times in the past.
And sometimes there are something, there’s something I should have said sooner. I think that’s where you have to really focus on each individual client as a coach and just try to get to know them a little bit before you just open your mouth and say something you might regret and you might steer them in the wrong direction or demotivate them. How about you?
What are some of your opening thoughts here about how you deal with client’s expectations for goals?
[Ben]Well, I like the example that you brought up of somebody with a very lofty goal. And especially when someone is very excited about starting on a process, the last thing you want to do is dampen their motivation and make them feel like they’re not going to be able to do what they want to do. And there’s a way to still have that kind of firm conversation about here’s what’s realistic, but I think you’re going to be so surprised with what you look like at the end of that.
Sometimes this comes up in the context of body fat percentages. Sometimes people will tell me like, I’m this body fat percentage. I want to get to this body fat percentage.
Even if I know I’m like, okay, either you’re not this right now or what you’re working towards isn’t actually what you think, you would actually probably love the way you look at 15 to 18%, but you’re saying that you want to be like nine to 10% or something like that. And of course, that conversation doesn’t always need to be had right then and there. So oftentimes what I’m finding myself talking about is regardless of what the actual numbers are that ends up happening or what the results, because you don’t know, the best that you can do is set up a plan to have a little visitor here.
As I was mentioning to Giacomo earlier in the podcast, he loves, I don’t know if I mentioned this off camera, on camera, but he loves jumping up while I’m recording. It’s his favorite thing to do. So whether that means that you are actually gaining 20 pounds of muscle or you’re only gaining 10 and it’s not the exact same thing, that person is looking way better, like you said.
The thing that I say to people is, okay, whatever the actions are that are going to get you that outcome, regardless of what the outcome is, that’s all that we can really do. So let’s say you want to get lean or you want to put on X amount of muscle, that’s going to require eating a certain way for your goals. That’s going to require training a certain way in the gym and whatever that timetable is or whatever the result of those actions are, it still takes the same things, like the same habits that you have to do.
So let’s start with doing the things that we know are going to give you the potential to reach that goal and whether or not you actually get there, if you’re invested in the process and you’re consistent with those actions, you’re going to be most likely proud of what you achieve at the end of it, even if it’s not exactly what you had in your head in terms of the numbers on paper.
[Giacomo]Yeah, what you’re saying reminds me of the whole, what you think you look like in one year, you look like in five years statement that usually lands pretty well because you get some short-term buy-in, but then you get some, you get to leave this impression on them that lasts when they’re a year later and they’re looking for what they hoped for and they see what they see and they’re like, wait a minute. And then they invest deeper into the process.
Being outcome-driven as far as your communication with your client goes, I feel like that does help a lot as well. And like you said, starting off with the simple, easy rocks to move like nutrition and training. I don’t mind looking broader though and starting to talk to them about their stress levels, their responsibilities, what kind of plates they have and what’s on their plates as far as how much they have going on and finding a way to sort of manage that better, sleep, stress, et cetera, et cetera.
And what another thing that I tend to say that tends to land well as well, look, you’re going to get the best results possible. And because of your life, because you’re an adult with a lot of responsibilities, you’re going to, you’re still able to do this. You could put in all the work.
Maybe your results will be 80% of that of someone who is doing this as their only responsibility and they’re eating pasta and playing video games and sleeping and living their life in a training center to become an Olympian. Like you can’t compare the two. They’re going to get much faster results than you.
But let’s see if we can get you moving in that direction. Let’s try to find a way to inject some fun. Let’s try to find a way to manage your stress.
Let’s try to find a way to get you to sleep more because these things are possible, right? So there’s a small rock and then there’s also the big picture. And I feel like if you approach it like that, as opposed to like, oh no, you’re setting the sights too high.
This is what you’re capable. This is the outcome. They’re like, okay, well, you lose them a little bit, right?
You want to be able to coach the person and everything that they’re doing, their way of life, their process, their routine, not just their nutrition training, right? What kind of stuff do you do to get into those conversations with people that seems to land well?
[Ben]Well, I think what you were kind of just touching on now is like, okay, there’s a thought that pops into my head was there’s outcome expectations, but then there’s also process expectations. So an outcome expectation, we’re talking about getting to a certain body fat percentage or gaining a certain amount of muscle, but a process expectation might be like getting to the gym. I want to get to the gym six times a week, or I want to hit every single macro, like down to the gram every single day.
And so we can adjust the process expectations. Sorry, we can adjust the outcome expectations, but honestly, it’s usually adjusting the process expectations that I think are probably is more relevant and is what leads to those outcomes anyways. So let’s say I get a new client and they’re really gung ho and they want to, you know, go to the gym five, six times a week.
They want to be there for an hour or two hours. Let’s say that they do have the time to do it. That’s an option, but I often find that almost like leaving them wanting a little bit more tends to lead to better adherence in the long term because everyone can, you know, start something new and feel pretty motivated about it.
But what about, you know, a month, two months, three months, six months from now, um, and really sticking to that. So sometimes I think it’s also about, okay, what is realistic for you to get to the gym? Maybe you could get to the gym six times a week, but are you going to really like after a couple of weeks of that be super stoked about that?
And maybe, you know, other stuff comes into your life. I think having contingency plans is important because you never know, like right now life might feel like pretty manageable, but maybe something big happens and now it’s like, oh, wow, it’s all over the place. And I’m having to go from six times a week to three times a week.
And that feels bad because I feel like I’m letting myself down from where I was. So, okay, let’s actually start with something that feels almost like almost too easy, but we know it’s not, you know, like going to the gym three or four times a week, especially for somebody who maybe has been consistent with that. That’s a big, that’s a, that’s a task, you know, it’s something that you got to adjust to.
So I think sometimes just saying to people, you know, it’s not, you don’t have to put in what you deem is the maximal effort in order to get like 90 to 95% of the results. Like you can, and that’s why having a coach is so important because we can contextualize these things and say like, this matters, this doesn’t matter. Like going to the gym three versus six times per week, I really don’t think for most people, you’re going to see a drastic difference in results.
But for some people that might be a drastic difference in time outside of the gym, you know, time that they’re able to de-stress or spend time with their family. And that leads to a better kind of life environment where things are feeling supportive. Thinking about nutrition, maybe they want to be able to track every single macro to the T, but let’s say, you know, they work in, I don’t know, finance or business.
They’re traveling all the time. Maybe they’re going out for client dinners. They might have to learn a different set of skills.
Like they’re not going to be out at a client dinner, pulling out their food scale. Like they’re going to have to learn how to, you know, make good choices based on the environment that they’re in and manage things the best that they can, even if that doesn’t mean being perfect. I know that that actually is probably a conversation to have with people a decent amount of time is like, hey, I really like tracking my macros and I like being accurate with things, but I can’t always do that.
And sometimes I’m going out or sometimes I’m having to manage it in an environment where I can’t have that accuracy. What do I do? And I think the something that something I like to focus on is let’s manage our expectations.
We’re not going to try to be perfect. We’re not going to try to get everything down. But maybe we can still estimate or still track what we’re doing, or we can have a goal going into those meals.
We can set up parameters around those meals. Hey, they’re not going to have protein there. Let’s try to get some protein before or after.
Maybe you don’t even know the menu ahead of time. Okay, I’m going to try to see what’s like the most protein dense thing that I can order on the menu to start out with. Maybe I can fill up on like a, you know, a salad with some, you know, light dressing beforehand.
There’s these little like tips and strategies that you can implement to make people feel good about controlling the controllables. And I think that that’s a conversation I have very often too. Maybe the expectation, people always say like, okay, I want to be able to say that I gave it my best, you know, every single day.
But something that I find myself saying to people is, hey, you know, your best on one day is not going to look like your best on another day. And that’s okay. Things are going to look a little bit different day to day.
But you can still have certain standards for yourself. Like, hey, I made an attempt to do this, or I genuinely gave my best effort in this environment or in this circumstance. And usually if people can say that nine out of 10 times, they’re going to be able to get to where they want to go.
And oftentimes it just means being honest with yourself about your efforts and also being okay with letting go of perfectionist tendencies. If you do fall into that category of like needing everything to be a certain way all the time. And that also has to do with managing expectations for yourself.
[Giacomo]Yeah. Well said, you’re speaking my language, which doesn’t surprise me because we both coach and some of that stuff is actually landing for me as well as an individual. But I think of clients and I think of the tendency.
So here’s the deal, right? If you’re the type to hire a coach, you’re probably the type to put in a lot of effort and you’re at that stage and at that point in time in your life where you’re like, I’m going to put in a lot of effort. So you’re going to really dig more often than not.
You’re going to want to see results. You’re going to be pushing really hard. And the dose needs to be appropriate too.
And like you said, I think the mindset needs to be there, right? So that’s where you come in and you provide the right kind of support so they can give you the right kind of context and you could have the right kinds of conversations as opposed to, did you do this or did you not do this? And this is what you need to do.
It’s how you frame things when your ability to reflect on like how things are going will help you improve upon your process and you’ll wind up being more likely to adhere. Put it that way. There’s something to be said about checking the boxes and knowing that there are boxes to check.
And when you can check them, you’re like, oh, well, it’s on me. I didn’t do the thing. And I have a coach to be accountable to when I need to do the darn thing.
Aside from just saying that, though, there’s more to it. Like you said, there’s understanding psychology around your behavior and what you’re doing and what you’re up against too, because it takes a while to change your routine. And there are life events.
There are twists, as you know, right? I mean, you went from what? Texas to Massachusetts to the Carolinas.
[Ben]Hey, I flew to Texas for a weekend. All right.
[Giacomo]To now possibly New York. And some of these were potential choices and others were surprises along the way. But it’s like each one of these opportunities, whether it’s for seven days or whether it’s for the next seven months or seven years, they’re going to present a new set of circumstances that you cannot predict, that you cannot control.
Your schedule will change. Your priorities will shift. Your responsibilities will evolve and change.
Like, what do you do to make sure that your bottom line needs are met as an athlete? You’re a competitive bodybuilder, just to use you as an example, because I’m usually pretty crappy at role playing. And sometimes I, you know, my clients, I just, it’s a little private.
I can’t like think about it even anonymously and bring them into the conversation. But you’re still going to train X amount of days a week, right? But you’re still going to eat a certain weight that’s in line with your goals.
And you’re still going to work towards becoming a more competitive athlete, even with all of all that life has to offer. The good, the bad, the ugly, the in-between, the unknown, the known. Having those kinds of conversations, journaling, if you don’t have someone to talk to, looking for social support, hiring a coach, for example, it really does get you out of your head.
And when you talk about things or when you put things out there and you get it out of your brain onto paper or in conversation, you’d be surprised how you become more capable as opposed to, well, I need to do the thing. These are the things I need to do. I just got to find a way to do them.
I still wrestle with that stuff. And it’s been 13 years of chasing the same exact goal over here, for example.
[Ben]When you brought up the example of competitive bodybuilding, I think that’s a good kind of little niche area to use as a microcosm for what we’re talking about here. So if you consider, okay, as a bodybuilder, there are different phases that you go through. Like there’s the contest prep phase, which requires a great degree of accuracy with what you’re doing with nutrition.
Even that’s periodized though. At the start of a prep versus the end of a prep, there’s a different degree of accuracy with tracking and your habits and going out to eat than maybe towards the end. You have to kind of turn up that dial as you get deeper into the prep.
When your prep is over and you’re going into an off season, you can kind of loosen the reins a little bit. Your tracking doesn’t need to be as precise. And I think that sometimes there definitely are competitors who try to take that prep mindset year round.
And there are some people that can do that, but I would say that’s the minority. And for the majority of people, if they try to have that always on mindset year round, they burn out of the sport and they burn out of even just like fitness sometimes in general. They fall out of love with the process and over the longterm, over a 10 or 20 year period, they get way less out of it than they could have if they would just have been okay with understanding that, hey, you know, in my off season, it’s okay for me to go out with friends and family to eat and not track as closely.
It’s okay for me to maybe have to move a training session around or, you know, alter things a little bit. Whereas maybe in prep, you have to be a little bit more protective of your routine and what you’re doing, especially if that goal is really paramount to you. It all depends.
Like how important is this goal when you’re stepping on stage? Is it for an outcome? Is it for, you know, your own process?
Like, what are you trying to get out of that? What are you trying to get out of bodybuilding in general? And that’s going to impact the decisions that you make.
Like if you’re trying to be the best bodybuilder in the world, that’s going to change the decisions you make compared to, I care about this thing, but it’s not absolutely my number one kind of top priority. That’s going to change the standards that you set for yourself and what your actions then therefore look like on a daily basis. So for myself, maybe there are times where I’m training a little bit more frequently.
I’m in the gym more often and times that I’m less. And sometimes that ebbs and flows based on my motivation to train, my goals with training, what kind of phase of life I’m in right now. Like I’ve had periods of time where I go to the gym two or three days a week.
I’ve had periods of time where I go every single day. So it’s okay for those things to kind of vary. You know, if I think about nutrition, there’s times where I’ve done the thing where I weigh every single thing that I put into my mouth to the gram and track it in a nap.
There’s been times where I’m not weighing and measuring and I’m kind of just going based off of habits, like trying to get protein at each meal, eating fruits and vegetables, you know, following my kind of hunger signaling. And there’s kind of a minimum threshold of, I don’t want to say accuracy, but standards that we set for ourselves once you get to a certain point with being consistent. So once you’ve been consistent for a long time, then you kind of have more license to decide what kind of dial, you know, how hard I guess, or how high you turn up that dial.
So I guess, you know, for me in my off season, I tend to kind of just guesstimate or track things or, you know, guesstimating my nutrition and understanding that I’m kind of hitting minimum thresholds for protein based on what I feel like is necessary and getting enough calories in and understanding that, okay, you know, training is really driving the main improvements that I’m making and having that be more structured. So there’s tons of different things that I could dive into here.
Even something like a sleep routine. Like when I was in prep, I was like super anal about my sleep routine. Like I need to be in bed at the same time every single day, waking up at the same time.
And your body kind of does force you into that rhythm to a certain extent. And you’re a lot more sensitive to changes in your routine. But right now, you know, I could go to bed a couple hours later, a couple hours earlier.
It doesn’t really impact me. I could go to the gym the next day, have a fine training session. Whereas in prep, if I went to bed a couple hours late, I might have a terrible day the next day.
So it’s just an example of how like sometimes your expectations for yourself and like the standard you hold yourself to is going to fluctuate based on your goals and where you’re at in life.
[Giacomo]Yeah. And unfortunately, bodybuilding is something that is largely unrelatable to many as interesting as it is. And as much as we pull a lot of information from the extremes that we take things to when it comes to coaching others through bodybuilding preps and seasons and all that.
However, something that I do think is completely relevant to just about anybody is that idea of the body composition that somebody wants. Because strength is, I feel like people are able to just accept like how strong they can become. They don’t get frustrated.
They just focus on getting stronger. So I don’t know that I want to talk too much about that unless I’m missing something here. Unless I think body composition and body shape is a lot, people are a lot more sensitive to that.
And it’s not just like what they’re capable of. It’s the level of effort that’s required once they get there. Right.
We could sit here and talk about how to get there, but you and I both know it’s a matter of finding a way to tap into someone’s potential with them and just get them the results you’re looking for. But once you get them to like where you feel they should be, where their maximum potential is within say like a year’s time and you’re like, okay, you want to be quote unquote, athletically lean. You want to be, you want to have the kind of body composition that someone has who’s very fit.
Cool. Okay. What’s your shape going to look like now?
What’s your body composition going to be like? What do you, how are you going to feel about the way that you look? And more important than any of that, right?
Because I, but because I don’t want to table what I’m talking about right now. Like I do want to talk about that. But what I think I want to start with is the level of effort that’s required to be there.
You have to do a certain amount of digging to get there. And then afterwards you got to chill out, but you still have to deal with what it takes to be in a body that is fitter. I don’t know that, I guess I don’t have a clear cut answer here.
I want to defer to you here and ask you to share your thoughts about how you approach that conversation with someone. It’s like, well, you got what you wanted. Now this is what it’s going to take to sustain it.
And this is how long it’s going to take for this process to feel sustainable. P.S. ask yourself, do you want this? Wherever it is that they land, you and I both know, Ben, like people usually go like, not everybody, but I would say 75% of people ask for something that is probably not easily attainable or maintainable.
And then the other 25%, they’re completely realistic. Now, what do you do about the people who ask for something that’s hard to attain and even harder to maintain? What do you do with those kinds of expectations during and after the fact?
[Ben]Well, as you were talking, I was thinking about that statistic with weight loss with like people, you know, majority of people are able to lose the weight, but people aren’t able to kind of maintain it afterwards. And I think a lot of that comes down to expectations, as we’ve been talking about the theme of today, because people think, OK, I can do this really hard diet or do this thing for 10, 12, 16 weeks, half a year, however long it takes for them to get to whatever their goal is. But then I think there’s some sort of disconnect where they don’t understand that if they go back to doing the things that they did before they did that process, then they’re not going to be able to keep what they’ve earned there in terms of their body composition.
So I think it is important to have that conversation along the way and say, OK, you know, we’re kind of digging for this goal right now. Now, when we get to it, it’s not going to be to the same level of what we’re doing right now in this moment, but you’re going to have to keep doing 80, 90% of the things that we’re doing with that same level of consistency, accuracy, et cetera, if you want to maintain that result that you’ve had. And some people will say, OK, good to know, let’s do it.
And they get there and they’re able to, you know, they have that expectation in, they’re able to do that. Other people might say, you know what? They might actually say that and then they get to the goal and then they try that for, like, you know, however many weeks or months and they’re like, you know what?
The amount of effort that I’m putting in right now in order to maintain this thing that I thought I wanted, I think there are certain tradeoffs other, you know, places in my life that just aren’t worth it. And so maybe, you know, they lose 30, 40 pounds, they put on some muscle, they look really good, they’re really lean, but they’re like, you know what? It just doesn’t afford me the social flexibility or, you know, I feel like I have to be so on it all the time or whatever it is that they feel like is taking a toll on them.
Maybe it’s finding that kind of middle ground where actually, you know, like gaining a little bit of weight back but allowing, like still looking good, just a different look is actually a net positive because it’s like, why are we doing all of this in the first place? We’re doing it to improve our quality of life. And I think sometimes we get so stuck in, like, the body composition or the goal that we’re trying to achieve that we forget the whole point is to enhance our life and we get really caught up in that.
I’ve certainly had periods of that myself and I’m sure you have as well where it’s like you kind of forget what the whole point of doing this at the start was, whether it’s self-actualization or achieving something you thought you couldn’t achieve. But, you know, achievement feels great. But if it’s at the cost of other things in your life, then sometimes it’s not always worth it.
But I do find that usually people have to kind of experience that themselves. Like you can kind of tell them or warn them like, hey, you know, this might not be worth the juice, might not be worth the squeeze. But until they actually do it and experience it themselves, they might not, you know, fully get it or fully understand it.
So I think if I have somebody who they have pretty lofty goals for themselves, maybe they don’t fully understand what it’s going to take to get there or what it’s going to take to maintain that. Again, you know, you set them up the best that you can. You have these conversations along the way just kind of saying, you know, like these are habits that we need to continue to maintain or adopt like going forward.
These are things that we’re going to want to be doing for the rest of our life. Again, maybe not to the same like rigidity or standard as we are when we’re actively working towards that goal. Let’s say fat loss.
You might be able to ease things up a little bit. Once you get there, you will be able to because, you know, being at maintenance is not the same as being in a deficit in terms of your habits. But just understanding that once you get there, you know, the things that you’re doing along the way.
Like that’s why we say, OK, it’s important to learn sustainable habits, because if you can’t sustain them or if you’re doing something and you can’t see yourself doing some version of that for the rest of your life, then it’s probably not going to stick. Whatever you end up achieving, even if you get there. I think that’s that’s where that’s what I usually tend to do is just like laying it out, saying this is what you can expect.
This is what we’re going to have to do to get there and to be able to maintain it. And most of the time, the answer that I get is, OK, let’s do it. And, you know, you see what happens.
You see, like, maybe they get there, maybe they don’t. Maybe they realize somewhere along the way before they even get there. Hey, this is not this is not worth it anymore.
I actually think maybe we should just ease up a little bit, still work towards some goals, but maybe readjust, readjust our timeline or readjust exactly where we’re trying to get. And you would think that people would be discouraged by that or maybe not feel so great about it. But usually I feel like they they feel good understanding that, hey, you know, like maybe it wasn’t exactly what I said at the start, but I’m actually this is adding to my quality of life.
I’m not feeling I’m feeling better about my my body image. I’m learning these habits. You know, I’m feeling good about myself.
And it’s OK that it’s not exactly what I what I had started out thinking that I was going to be doing or getting to.
[Giacomo]Exactly. And you might find an Easter egg or two along the way with certain clients who get there, are happy with the results and can, in fact, maintain it. And if you don’t give someone what they want, they may quit on themselves altogether or just be really frustrated with the process.
And it’s a little I think it’s a little harder when you don’t go that route. Plus, you might as well try to get there and see what happens and see how that person feels. Then there’s the opposite end of the spectrum, which honestly, I haven’t been able to think ahead in my mind yet because I was listening to what you were saying.
And all of it is just music to my ears, honestly, because I know what that’s like working with someone and even on a personal basis. And I’m still you still try to figure it out. And like anything else, you adapt over time and sometimes it takes a long time to adapt and sometimes you don’t ever adapt.
So it’s trial and error experiment with clients and with yourself. And there’s all kinds of variables. Then the other 25 percent, though, is what’s on my mind.
And I’ll try to think through this a little bit as we start to talk about them, where it’s the person who has the completely realistic expectation, where it’s a micro goal, but you know, in their heart, somewhere along the lines, they want more. They just are afraid and they think they can’t or they just want a small win. Or they how do I say they don’t believe in themselves for some reason, whatever it is, there’s something there preventing them from going further.
And you have to kind of pull it out of them because they’re accepting it. But, you know, somewhere inside your reading between the lines, like it’s your job as a coach to motivate them and help them believe in themselves and be like, yeah, OK, so so I know that you don’t want to. And whether it’s a big goal or whether it’s just getting back to where they were, it doesn’t have to be like a giant goal like, hey, I need to lose 100 pounds.
I just need the first 25 as a win. And I could probably be happy if I just take half that off for the next five years. There’s that kind of client.
And there’s a kind of client where their goal is 25 pounds. Right. But, you know, they probably want 50 off and you get them, you know, 20 to 25 down and you know, they’re happy, you know, they’re capable of more and you know that they’re starting to gain some confidence.
But like you’re not towing that line yet. So you dip your toes in the water as a coach and you start to work with them and you build up their mindset and you give them a little bit of a reprieve from the process that it took to being calorie reduction mode, to get the weight off, to build muscle all the while you let them enjoy that that small way and you let them enjoy where they’re at and you lay down the expectation like, hey, you like this.
This is comfortable. This is great. I feel like you could be capable of I know you could be capable of even more.
I feel like it’s something that’s worth discussing. Is this something you consider putting the effort in on? And I think my first opinion when you get someone there where they have a smaller goal, whether it’s a smaller goal and there’s a much bigger goal or a smaller goal and there’s a little more push, I feel like I feel like you have to dangle that carrot.
You have to when you when you know it’s that kind of person, not the kind of person, Ben, where you know, like you would push them over the edge a little bit for some higher achievement that that may be there on the table that they may want. But I mean, the person who, you know, they want more. You could just sense it.
It’s just there’s some sort of block for them, mental, emotional, who knows. But I think part of it is keeping them where they’re at for a little while, helping them gain confidence, but also dangling that carrot. So what happens when you dangle that carrot?
What happens when you work on your client’s mindset and you hear their objections or you feel their fear? Or you sort of have to not just encourage them, but lean into them a little bit and see if if they want to be pushed in that direction, because some part of them signed up with you for that reason in the first place. They want a coach who’s going to push them, you know what I mean?
Even when they’re not necessarily asking to be pushed. It’s like a gray area. Do you know what I mean?
Have you had scenarios like that? Like, what would you what would what kind of conversation if I was a fly on the wall and you were having a conversation with a client? How would you frame the conversation?
What kind of things would you say to them?
[Ben]I actually feel like this kind of archetype of client for me is someone that I have less reservations about than the person who is super gung-ho at the start and is like, like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to like lose this big amount of or, you know, the super ambitious goal. Like, I love that.
And I, of course, I’m going to do everything that I can to help them get there. But I think sometimes those people tend to be the more all or nothing people who, you know, they feel super, you know, emotional about something at the start. But then once that kind of fizzles out, they have trouble kind of remembering their vision or sticking to it or kind of reflecting on their why.
Whereas this other archetype that you’ve kind of just described, this is the person that I find they are very consistent and they’re able to get to those kind of smaller goals that they’ve set for themselves. And you get little glimpses of maybe the fact that they want more, like you said, like they might say something like, oh, I really admire this person or I, you know, I think what these people do is so cool. But then you get the sense that they don’t believe that that could ever be them or that they could have that for themselves, even if it’s you kind of pick up that maybe that’s something that they would want to do, whether that, you know, it could be something like competing in a powerlifting competition or doing a bodybuilding show or, you know, whatever it is, whether it’s something more competitive or something a little bit more out there in terms of goals. I think that sometimes you can pick up on those little, I guess, moments of lack of confidence and really encourage them or push them or say like, hey, is that something that you would want to do?
And they might say like, I could never or something like that. And you can kind of push back on that and you can say, you know, why is that? Why do you believe that?
You know, what has led you to get to that the mindset that you have currently today? And then also just reflecting on, you know, encouraging them, reminding them of what they’ve been able to do so far, continuing to, you know, push them forward in like a because I think those people who tend to be lower on like the self-confidence spectrum, they need a little bit of that push and that constant kind of like reminder that they’re doing a good job. They’re, you know, they’re executing the way that they need to.
And then, you know, again, I think it is kind of a subtle thing of like picking up on those moments where maybe they don’t feel the best about themselves or they’re considering like it might be they have, they come to you, they mentioned like three goals in the first two. You’re like, oh yeah, we can easily get that done. And then the third one is a little bit more out there.
And they’re like, well, I don’t know, like this is more of like a stretch goal or like I don’t really know. Like you can kind of pick up on that stuff, I think. And sometimes it can take a couple of weeks or months of building that momentum in order for them to believe, hey, I can do that thing.
And then that might be a case of adjusting expectations in the other way and saying like, hey, you know, you were able to do this thing. What if you, you know, what do you think about pushing for this? And it might be a little scary and they might say, oh, I don’t know.
Or I don’t know, you know, that that couldn’t be me. But just, I think, again, continuing to give them the positive reinforcement and saying, you know, I think you can, I believe in you, that can go a long way for somebody. And I just think of examples of like people lose a bunch of weight and then they decide, hey, I want to do a bodybuilding competition because I’ve been able to do this massive thing so far that I never thought I’d be able to do.
Why not kind of keep going? So there’s, you know, more, I guess, examples that I could give of this. But I think that sometimes those folks I find are actually able to get to those more extreme goals than the people who have them from the start, because somebody who slowly builds that confidence over time, as opposed to somebody who’s kind of like shouting from the rooftops right from the start about what they’re going to do.
And like, again, I don’t want to paint, you know, a negative picture. I think it’s great to be motivated at the start. But I think a lot of people, it feels good to talk about what they’re going to do and but doesn’t always necessarily translate to them actually doing it.
Whereas sometimes the person who’s kind of the slow burner from the start ends up getting there in the end. There’s just so many different personalities when it comes to things I’ve seen. And I think that everyone has the potential to do great things and to, you know, get the body composition that they want, even if it wasn’t necessarily how they expected it to go from the start.
And I think it’s about understanding who is that person? What is their psychology? What are they going to respond to best?
What do they need from you? And it’s something that I think you can only really get through seeing a lot of people and interacting with a lot of people. And it’s something that I’m still continuing to work on as I grow as a coach.
[Giacomo]Exactly. And there’s some of it that you don’t, you’re not able to get out of somebody on day one. And sometimes even after week 12, when they’ve started to get their good, good results and they have their routine, depending on the person, if they’re not ready, no matter how hard you try to earn their trust, it could be hard to actually pick up on whatever it is that they’re wanting to put down.
They’re just not able to talk about it for whatever reason. There’s all kinds of reasons. So it can be really tricky.
But I do feel like the longer you stick it out with somebody, the longer the conversation is ongoing with someone, with a coach, eventually the better it gets because walls get taken down, you get results and that’s rewarding. So you’re more likely to talk about what you want that you haven’t gotten, or think about what you really, truly want long-term. And there’s trust that’s earned in all kinds of ways, which is why it’s, in my opinion, so much, it’s the reason why we don’t take people on for 12 weeks at a time anymore, because you’re not going to get someone somewhere.
It’s that good old fashioned saying how, when you’re like, you’re yo-yo dieting. You know what I mean? It’s like, it’s an inflammatory thing to say, but it’s true.
You don’t want a transformation. You want to change your way of life. You want your routine and you want your process to stick, and it’s just not going to happen in 12 weeks.
You can get a lot accomplished on paper in 12 weeks, but you’re not going to get the lasting change. And you’re not, honestly, likely not going to know what you truly want and what you need to get there as well. And that’s why it’s so important to have that conversation that lasts for longer than 12 weeks, and that process that lasts for longer than 12 weeks.
Because then you start to really think about what you want, not just a goalpost that’s in front of you, and not just to learn how to maintain those results. It’s a much bigger conversation. You know what we haven’t scratched the surface on yet?
What people see externally, existentially, outside of what they think they’re capable of, but what they think they’re capable of based on what they see on social media, based on what they see as far as what you’ve done with other clients here at Vegan Proteins, based on what they think you’re capable of because they are hiring a coach. Like, I don’t want to use the word temper expectations, the statement temper expectations, but how do you help support clients? And I don’t want to use the example of the archetype who has the hero’s mindset.
You know what I mean? It’s the person who just isn’t quite aware of what’s possible and what they’re capable of. Let me put it this way, Beth.
You could see somebody on Instagram, and you could be far more capable of than what they’re capable of, but just in a different way. You are going to be capable of a totally different thing, but you’re inspired, influenced by them. And you obviously don’t want to crush that person’s dreams, and you want to use whatever motivation they have, like, do not take it away from them.
Do not take it away from them. But at some point, you get into the conversation with them, and you want to get them to understand what they’re capable of, and it’s going to be different than whatever they see out there. Put it that way.
I mean, this is a much broader topic, so I don’t really know where to begin, but what do you do with expectations when it comes to what people… Here, here’s how to word it. Someone’s expectations are impacted by what they see.
How do you deal with that?
[Ben]Yeah, it’s tough. I think, obviously, the nature of social media is that the more outstanding and the more out of the ordinary physiques or things that we see, those are the things that get pushed to people. So, of course, that’s going to impact the way that you see the world.
You know, if you kind of just go to… You know, you walk outside, you walk around. Obviously, people are wearing clothing, so you can’t always tell, but it’s not…
You quickly understand that what you see online, especially if you’re following a lot of fitness content, is not reflective of the average person, and that’s fine, because you might not want to be average. You might want to aspire and really try to kind of push the envelope there. So, if somebody is on social media and they find that that is making them feel negatively about themselves, then I would just say, hey, you know what?
Maybe this is not the most productive thing for you to be spending your energy on. If it’s not making you feel inspired, it’s just making you feel kind of poor about yourself and your process. Just, it’s okay to kind of like audit that a little bit and take a different direction with how you choose to use social media.
But if you are finding that you do like consuming that content, but sometimes you do find yourself thinking, why can’t I look like that? Or why can’t I be like that? I think that it’s important to ask the questions of, you know, what about this person is inspiring to you?
Is it just their physique? Or is it maybe the way that they carry themselves? The fact that they’re really confident and they seem to take that with them wherever they go.
That’s something that you can take for yourself too. You don’t need to, you know, look just like them in order to have that confidence in the way that you carry yourself about your life. Maybe, you know, you like, you follow someone because you think they have really nice arms or, you know, big glutes or whatever it is.
You can still want that for yourself without, you know, comparing that to somebody else. You can still say, wow, that person inspires me because I really, or like, I really like the way this person’s look. Well, why?
Is that something that you can change for yourself? Certain things are genetic, whether that be, you know, the way that your body is shaped, you know, your waist size, whatever that is. Your, you know, how wide your hips are.
You can’t control that. So you might not always look like, you know, the Instagram models, but you can still focus on the things that are within your control and do your best to create your own kind of vision and sculpture for your physique. And that’s really why I like bodybuilding is because it really puts that emphasis on, like, everybody’s unique.
You know, everyone can kind of play to your own strengths. You know, your body is your, your sculpture and you can kind of create it the way that you want to create it. And I think sometimes social media takes the, you know, robs the kind of joy or fun out of that process because then it puts it on comparison and like, you know, I look, I don’t look like this person or I do look like this person.
And I think the more that you can find accounts or find people that motivate you and inspire you in a way that doesn’t make you feel down about yourself, but you can still kind of take things from them and say like, wow, that’s really cool. I want to do that for myself, but in my own way, that doesn’t mean you have to copy exactly what they’re doing because the reality is the people who are popular on social media probably do have very good genetics for this. And so what is working for them might not work for you.
It might, they might have good information. They might be evidence-based and they also just have a very great physique. But the majority of the time, I think probably they, they, you know, they pulled the good card and they got the, they didn’t get the short straw.
So considering that and understanding that you can still want aspects of what they have, but trying to really avoid falling into that comparison trap, I think is, is the way to go. But it’s tough. I still, I still go on YouTube or I still go on social media and I like following different, you know, people and enjoy their information.
But still, sometimes I might feel like, oh man, like I wish I could look like that or along those lines and also just understanding it’s okay to have those feelings, but it doesn’t need to change the way that you’re doing things or, you know, it doesn’t mean that what you have accomplished isn’t great in its own right. Because again, everyone’s circumstances, environment is going to be different. So if you focus on doing the best that you can do, you can take confidence in the fact that I did what I could.
It’s kind of that, like, you know, that stoic mindset of just like doing, doing what you can and trying not to worry about what you can’t do or what you can’t have.
[Giacomo]Yeah, exactly. And I want to make sure to verbalize it. The people that put themselves out there are putting themselves out there in a very polished way.
Very good lighting, very good photography, outfits that are flattering, whatever it is. And they know how to make themselves look good. They’re retouching their photos.
Everything is engineered in such a way where they’re going to look in their best, they’re going to look like the way they look and they’re going to be able to paint the picture of themselves in the best light at all times. And they know how to move their body. And when you compare that to the average person, it’s crazy.
I’ve actually, I started an album in my camera roll on my phone where I just take completely normal pictures, not trying to take crappy pictures, just totally normal pictures. Because you can get so hung up on bodybuilding as a person who’s out there. I’m supposed to, right?
I’m supposed to put a professional image out there. That’s what we’re supposed to do. But you can wind up having distorted perception of yourself when you don’t look like that, for example.
And that’s coming from the inside, right? As in, this is our industry and we’re the ones, we’re the public facing people. And we know how to put ourselves out there, look a certain way.
We’re not trying to dupe anyone or create any sort of uncomfortability for anyone. It’s just going to take a somewhat polished picture of ourselves, right? That’s how you put yourself out there professionally.
What do you do as a professional when you’re behind the scenes and just looking at yourself in everyday lighting or without posing or anything, right? So that’s a way that I personally work on my body image. But then I think to myself, on the other side of the equation, we have the person taking this in, and again, I’m not trying to take this to an unreasonable place.
And many people do. Many people take it to a completely unreasonable place. They want whatever they look like out there to look untouchable, basically, right?
So, but even someone like myself who just puts themselves out there professionally, having a clean look for the fitness industry, how that must impact somebody, you know? You have a client and it’s like, okay, well, how do I move my body? How do I make myself look good?
Sometimes I try to encourage clients. I’m like, you know what? Take a photo shoot.
Try that. And it’s hard. It’s hard to do that.
Honestly, I get more nos and yeses when I make that suggestion, for example. And bodybuilding, competitive bodybuilding is very subjective. There’s a lot of pageantry.
It’s almost like a little bit of a popularity contest too. You almost kind of have to charm the judges, I think. I mean, genetics win every time, but when you get to a certain caliber, they’re choosing somebody over another and everyone’s chasing the same look and people are getting favored.
I mean, you really have to be comfortable with that part of the sport, right? But if you take elements of bodybuilding and you apply them to everyday life and you’re not focused on that, on competition and that crazy sport, and you just focus on hypertrophy and you focus on what your shape is capable of and you focus on enhancing your shape and putting muscle on all the right places and the basic principles of bodybuilding, where you can make your shape, accentuate the way that you look based on building up your shoulders, for example, or building up your quads, for example.
Now you improve your shape, whatever your goal is. Then you’re winning every time. You’re winning every single time.
Like you said, that’s why I love bodybuilding too, because you can, you focus on changing your shape by changing the size and shape of your muscles and training specific muscles to look a specific way without getting into that whole dark underbelly of bodybuilding and hopefully without obsessing or having a distorted perception of what you’re capable of by looking at how other people put themselves out there. Because if I showed you a picture of what I look like where I’m just chilling in front of a mirror versus when I know exactly how to contort and move my body and focus on the perfect lighting with the perfect camera and the perfect photographer and the perfect amount of retouching if you’re taking 300 photos and choosing two of them, it would blow your mind. It would blow your mind.
So imagine you’re not doing that, right? Probably not. So you give yourself a little bit of grace because, and you don’t compare yourself because there is no comparison to what you see out there versus they’re not capable of that.
They’re just looking a certain way out there. I’m not even referring to genetically related. I’m referring to anyone that puts himself out there in that way.
It’s like don’t compare.
[Ben]It’s something that I just thought of as well is this idea of survivorship bias. And you’re also not seeing all the people on social media who tried to do the exact same thing that you’re doing right now and they failed and they couldn’t stick to it. And now they are back to square one or they’re not even doing the whole fitness thing at all.
So if you’re down 15, 20 pounds, you put on a couple pounds of muscle, you’re getting stronger in the gym, you’re focusing on your healthy habits and you feeling bad because you’re looking at like the cream of the crop and saying, why can’t I have that? Also remember that there are so many people who try to do the thing that you’re doing right now and doing it well and they couldn’t cut it. So that’s another thing to keep in mind is you’re only gonna see the successes, you’re not gonna see the failures and like celebrate your own wins because those deserve to be celebrated as much as anybody else who’s winning a bodybuilding competition or they’re the best crossfitter in the world.
Like your own successes should not be impacted and you shouldn’t feel like there’s anything taken away by the fact that other people, because there’s always gonna be somewhere out, someone out there that does something better than you or looks better than you. Like it’s just the truth. So focus on where you started and what you’re able to do and if you kind of keep that focus internally and maybe now and then you use some external factors for motivation or inspiration, I think that’s a pretty healthy way to go.
[Giacomo]Yeah, I feel like we’re sort of wrapping up things here, this conversation. I think it’s naturally coming to an end, right? And unless there’s something else that you wanna share, you have any parting thoughts, I think this is kind of the perfect way to end things really.
Thank you so much for inviting me on to talk about this topic because this was a good one.
[Ben]It was, it was. So if there are folks who they know that they have goals for themselves, they’re not sure exactly what’s realistic for them, but they know that they want somebody to kind of guide them on that process, do you wanna let people know what they can do in order to get in touch with us?
[Giacomo]Go to veganproteins.com and submit an application for one-on-one coaching. You’ll hear from me, we can hang out, get to know each other better and we can talk about your goals and what your process can look like to get there. This is what we do.
We’ve been doing this for a very long time. Our specialty is coaching people one-on-one and we’d love to have that conversation with you.
[Ben]Absolutely. So you can follow us on social media as well, at Vegan Proteins and at Muscles by Brussels. If you wanna follow myself, at Ben A.
Mitchell. And thank you for tuning into another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels radio. I’m Ben.
You did the whole thing, the start and the close, all of it. I love it. And I’m Giacomo.
And we will see you in the next time. I’m taking over, baby. Do it.
