In this episode, Dani and Giacomo sit down to unpack the striking similarities among some of the most well-known vegan doctors out there—think Greger, Esselstyn, Barnard, McDougall, and the like. While their personalities and branding might differ, there’s a surprising amount of overlap in their core messages. We’re talking about what they all agree on, where they diverge, and how this impacts everyday vegans trying to figure out what the hell to eat. Expect a mix of nerdy nutrition talk, respectful critique, and a few laughs as we break down the science, the hype, and the human side of plant-based health.
TRANSCRIPT:
Ep 217 – Doctor Debate audio only
[Dani]
Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Vegan Protein’s Muscles by Brussels
radio. My name is Dani.
[Giacomo]
And I’m Giacomo.
[Dani]
And thanks for tuning in. This way. You don’t have to remember what episode it is, because we
never know.
[Giacomo]
Oh my gosh. Wait, thanks for tuning in?
[Dani]
Yeah.
[Giacomo]
That, like, we’ve, this has been 150 episodes saying the same thing and you just flipped the
script on me? You don’t even warn me?
[Dani]
Yes. Wow.
[Giacomo]
Okay.
[Dani]
This, it’s, it’s spring. It’s beautiful. It’s beautiful.
We’re back home. Last time we recorded together we were in Brussels. It was better in
Brussels, but here we are.
[Giacomo]
Oh yeah.[Dani]
We’re home. And man, it just feels like everything is crazy right now. I feel like we have so much
going on, or so many things in the works, I should say, that it’s actually been, like, I’ve been a
bit overwhelmed.
How about you?
[Giacomo]
I like the little break that we had across the pond in Europe, because it made me forget about
my own existential worries and concerns for a minute, and I feel like I came back and I was a
little less concerned, but then I was like, oh my gosh, I can’t stop doomscrolling. And I usually
pride myself on being able to not do that.
[Dani]
Interesting.
[Giacomo]
Yeah. And not that I really got back into it, but I was like in a rut, like I couldn’t stop it.
[Dani]
I didn’t know that. That’s interesting. Because I’ve actually been better, I think, about doing it
less, which also means I’ve been on Instagram less.
So sorry guys. So many of you have tagged me in stories and I have just missed them
completely because I just haven’t been on there as much, but I think it’s been pretty good for
my brain. And we’ve been leaning pretty heavily into YouTube.
Some of our YouTube videos have done really well lately, particularly food-related ones. So I
have really put a big chunk of my energy into those, and it’s been a lot of work. But if people
are seeing it and it’s getting the message out there that it’s totally worth it, but it just means I
don’t have the headspace for that, and Instagram, and clients, and the podcast.
And then on top of that, this week is crazy because the kids, we told you guys about how they
did the Annie play a few months ago, while the same production company or whatever is doing
The Wizard of Oz. And they’re both in The Wizard of Oz, and that is this weekend, which means
this is tech week, which means they have two hours of rehearsal in costume every single night
this week, heading that up.
[Giacomo]
The not anti-theater camp, but no experience with it as a child, what does tech week mean?[Dani]
Tech week is, so like most of the rehearsals, you’re running lines, you’re learning your spots on
stage. Tech week, they’re testing, first of all, they’re in costumes to make sure there’s no
problems with the costumes they work. There’s lighting, there’s music, they’re testing the
speakers, the PA systems, the microphones, the props, making sure they get, it’s like running
straight through.
And I mean, those are really crazy weeks when you’re in high school, or college, or an adult. Let
me tell you what it’s like with a five-year-old.
[Giacomo]
Most ridiculous moment from your childhood with theatrics, and theater, and acting, all that, or
something memorable, I’m super curious. This is something I don’t know yet about her. We’ve
been together for like 15 plus years, but this is a new question.
[Dani]
I don’t think that I had any ridiculous moments, like luckily, knock on wood, I didn’t have any
embarrassing stage moments that I can recall, no.
[Giacomo]
Nothing out of the ordinary, nothing funny, nothing silly, nothing memorable?
[Dani]
In a performance? No, thank God. I mean, that’s what they say, practice till you can’t get it
wrong.
I did sing for the whole city of Haverhill one time.
[Giacomo]
Yeah, you have told me a little bit about that.
[Dani]
And that was on the front page of the paper, and it was really funny, because I had gotten
bangs that day, and I had never had bangs before. And someone told me I was on the front
page of the paper, and they bought me the paper, and I was like, where? And they were like,
dude, it’s you, you’re the only one there.
But I didn’t recognize myself because I had bangs.
[Giacomo]That’s cute. Okay, so Danny and bangs after performing for the city.
[Dani]
Yep.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha.
[Dani]
Anyway, this is a today’s podcast topic is a really big one, and I’m hoping we’re going to be able
to do it some justice. It actually came to me while we were on the cruise, which we’ve been on
the cruise six or seven times at this point. And one of the things they always say at the
beginning, when they’re talking to all the attendees who are going to be watching all of these
lectures from different doctors and professionals, they say, you’re going to hear a lot of
different things from a lot of different people, and they might not always agree with each other.
And I guess I kind of wanted to talk about that, because having been vegan for 23 years now, I
see it less now than I used to. But there used to be people who dogmatically followed certain
vegan doctors, and everything they said was gospel. And you did it.
And if you didn’t do it, you are a failure. And you sucked. And I remember even back then being
like, how could you do that?
When like most of the biggest doctors, they have fairly significant differences between what
they preach and what they talk about. So, you know, I think they not bump heads, they’re all
colleagues, they all get along. Like, this isn’t like there’s a feud between most of them, or a
couple, though.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
But they have differing philosophies, different advice that they give. And I just wanted to kind of
talk about that, the differences between them, maybe why some of the differences between
them, etc. And I, I did my research, I showed up because I’m not going to remember all of this
off the top of my head.
But Giacomo, who usually shows up with no notes whatsoever, and just like, I got my pants on.
[Giacomo]
So I guess that works thing, right?[Dani]
What are we talking about today? And I’m just like, oh, crap. No, he brought a novel of stuff
today.
So I’m really curious to hear some of your thoughts.
[Giacomo]
Likewise.
[Dani]
First of all, was this something that you noticed, experienced back in the day when you first
went vegan? And do you still see it now, more or less?
[Giacomo]
I have bias because we’ve been speaking out against dietary dogma for a very long time. And
we also stay in our lane as fitness coaches and have dug deeper into the trenches with that kind
of research and conversation. So it’s hard to say.
But I would imagine that some of this stuff is still pretty pervasive out there overall, as far as
the dialogue around diet, disease prevention, wellness, disease reversal, and dietary stuff when
it comes to what people are talking about, what they believe in, what they’re fixated on, what
they’re stuck on. I think as a coach, you still see it in your clients and you still see the residual of
this. And you do, in fact, have clients that come to you that still very much so are, how do I say?
[Dani]
Like tied to a very specific set of rules that were laid out by oftentimes one of these doctors.
Sometimes it’s other people. And obviously, we couldn’t cover every single vegan doctor.
I picked a handful of some of the most well-known ones and then a couple of the newer ones,
too, because I think that’s interesting. Do we want to start by just kind of going through each of
these doctors and kind of discussing them a bit? Sure.
[Giacomo]
Why not?
[Dani]
I like it. Okay. I feel like we should probably start with McDougall.
[Giacomo]
Okay.[Dani]
Rest in peace, Dr. John McDougall. He passed away last year. But he, I think, was probably, at
least of my list here, I think he was the first.
And a lot of you guys will likely know him from the starch solution. For many people, that was
their introduction into the quote-unquote wellness world in the first place. Did you have any
personal experience with him at all, Giacomo?
[Giacomo]
Nothing personal, no. Outside of running in similar circles when we were out there promoting
veganism or whatever.
[Dani]
Right. But I mean, like, back when you, before you did this for a living, like, did you read the
starch solution at all? No.
[Giacomo]
You?
[Dani]
Not back then. No, I didn’t. I was not seeking out information from doctors at the time.
I could not have given a single crap about my health at the time. I went vegan for animal
reasons.
[Giacomo]
True.
[Dani]
And then I got straight into fitness, which, whether we like it or not, often jumps right over
health and goes into its own sort of territory.
[Giacomo]
Yes, it does.
[Dani]
So he actually started doing his interventions with people in the 70s. That’s over 50 years ago.
And he is or was a board-certified internist, preached the starch solution, which if you guys
don’t know, it’s exactly what it sounds like.It is primarily built around starches, rice, potatoes, grains, vegetables. I’m not, not vegetables,
actually. Fruits and vegetables were kind of like sidekicks to the grains.
It really was like carbohydrate-based diet, no fat, no fat whatsoever, no added oils, nuts, seeds,
anything like that. And it was specifically to intervene to help prevent chronic disease.
[Giacomo]
Yeah, very dietary-based.
[Dani]
Yes.
[Giacomo]
His approach.
[Dani]
Yes.
[Giacomo]
As far as his messaging was concerned.
[Dani]
And even though he started this back in the 70s, I still meet people today who are reading or
following or attempting to follow the starch solution diet, because even though I think he
initially started it to help with chronic disease, it became a weight loss thing, heavily weight
loss.
[Giacomo]
Adopted his ideas in weight loss circles.
[Dani]
No, no, no. It just became like, oh, you want to lose weight? You do the starch solution.
You just eat carbohydrates.
[Giacomo]
But was McDougall himself in his camp promoting that?
[Dani]Yes.
[Giacomo]
Okay.
[Dani]
Yes. Weight loss books. I think the starch solution is actually a weight loss book.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha.
[Dani]
Okay.
[Giacomo]
So he started focusing himself on promoting weight loss. Gotcha. As opposed to wellness.
[Dani]
Which of course, depending on the person, weight loss can help prevent certain chronic
diseases.
[Giacomo]
Starch and carbohydrates are satiating.
[Dani]
And they are satiating and plain carbohydrates without fats or the proteins are low in calories
too. Right. So for people coming from a more standard American diet style of eating, going to
just basically eating potatoes, they’re probably going to lose weight.
And this, you know, of course flies in the face of this idea that a high carb diet means you can’t
lose weight or it’s going to give you diabetes. So I think in some regards, like it was in fact like
helpful and kind of paved the way for some other plant-based folks. But obviously I think it
would go without saying, Jock Mo and I recommend this diet to anybody, anybody.
I can’t think of anybody that I would recommend it to.
[Giacomo]
Well, think about all of the unintentional rules and restrictions you’ll wind up placing on
yourself, even if they’re not saying do it this way only or else, right? If you’re going to avoid non-starchy carbohydrates, that’s going to be problematic real fast.
[Dani]
You’re going to avoid non-starchy carbohydrates. Right. Okay.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
I think that we talk about weight loss a lot, given what we do. And if you are losing weight,
especially significant amounts of weight and severely under eating protein, you are going to be
losing so much muscle. Like, yeah, the scale is going to go down.
You are going to lose so much muscle and that might leave you in a less healthy position
depending on where you started.
[Giacomo]
What’s the word on beans when it comes to beans and starchy carbohydrates? Where do those
fall in starch solutions?
[Dani]
I didn’t actually check, but I don’t think that they’re a major player. I’m sure that they were
allowed, but I don’t think that they were a major player in his… Maybe they were, actually.
I’m not 100% sure.
[Giacomo]
It’s here somewhat in the messaging. I’m looking at my stuff too over here because I don’t
remember all this stuff off the top of my head either. And some of the stuff I’m just unaware of
and familiar with.
[Dani]
Corn, beans, other starches.
[Giacomo]
It’s one starch.
[Dani]
But still, yeah, you’re eating a plate of just carbs and even if those carbs are beans, if you’reeating that all day, you’re going to be having a bad day for the most part. But I also think that
part of his mission was to help people avoid the medical system, which I think is kind of a lot of
what the wellness community is based on is not needing doctors or prescriptions or this or that.
And I have a lot of gripes with the wellness community, but there’s also some good things in
there too.
So I think we’ve got to give credit where credit’s due. I think he probably introduced a lot of
people to plant-based living.
[Giacomo]
Yeah, agreed.
[Dani]
But he’s not without criticisms. I would say that many of his colleagues, some of these other
doctors we’re going to talk about, many but not all, because you’ll see there’s kind of two
camps. That’s what I noticed going through this.
[Giacomo]
Oh yeah?
[Dani]
Yeah, there’s two.
[Giacomo]
I don’t know that I have different camps, but I could see where different doctors are buddy-
buddy, not necessarily in terms of one another, but their messaging is sort of interwoven. The
thing that I noticed with the dietary messaging is that those kinds of doctors often lean in so
heavily on talking about diet that they wind up blaming a lack of eating a certain way as the
reason why people are not getting results or they’re not healthy, yada, yada, yada. Even if it’s
unintentional, which I would imagine often or at least somewhat often it is.
[Dani]
Interesting.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
Well, I’ll see if you can pick up on the camps that I found.[Giacomo]
Sure.
[Dani]
So one of the things his colleagues would criticize him about was being extremely anti-fat, like
anti-dietary fat, no dietary fat. And a lot of people found him to be just brash or blunt or
argumentative. I never met him.
I don’t know. He may have been a very lovely man, but I know those are some of the criticisms.
Gotcha.
There.
[Giacomo]
Yeah. It’s hard when you have a certain agenda and you want to be objective and you’re
learning about what kind of message you’re going to put out there. However, there’s probably
reasons behind that too, as far as different doctors, their sets of belief, their research, their
finding, whatever it is, even when it’s completely objective, giving them the benefit of doubt, of
course.
[Dani]
The next, I guess I didn’t write mine in this order, but I think it kind of makes sense to go from
what I think of as the list doctors, like the ones who started doing this first up till now, but we
might get this order a little bit wrong. Dean Ornish. Did you do Dean Ornish?
[Giacomo]
I did not have him on my list. Go for it though. I know, I missed him.
[Dani]
Okay. So Dr. Dean Ornish, he’s a medical doctor. He was a clinical professor of medicine at UCSF
and the founder of Preventative Medicine Research Institute.
So he created the Ornish Program for Reversing Heart Disease, which was actually the first
program approved by Medicare to reverse chronic disease with lifestyle, which I think is actually
really cool.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]Because health insurance basically will only cover pills, it seems like. So the fact that he was the
program that was lifestyle-based covered by Medicare, I think that’s kind of cool.
[Giacomo]
So cool. I love it.
[Dani]
And he took a different approach to a lot of the other doctors where, yes, he focused heavily on,
but he actually focused on four pillars of diet, exercise, stress management, and love.
[Giacomo]
Oh, I like that.
[Dani]
I know.
[Giacomo]
That’s nice.
[Dani]
It is kind of nice. So he believed that like those four things together could reverse heart disease
without drugs, without surgery. And I really do like that.
I like that it’s a full holistic approach. I mean, you can absolutely see where people would kind
of make fun of the kind of kumbaya vibes of the whole thing.
[Giacomo]
Oh, yeah, totally.
[Dani]
But I think what he meant was diet, duh, exercise, duh, stress management. It might not have
been duh back then, but I think it is now. We have enough research to show that stress is very
dangerous.
And love was more like your social environment, your connections with your community.
Which, yeah, there’s a lot of research to suggest that’s very healthy.
[Giacomo]
I went through that personally with my father throughout the medical system. And I have tosay, although there was much evidence and science behind all the treatments, and it was very
heavily intensive with pharmaceuticals and experimental drug trials, and this and that, time and
time and time again, it was all about managing someone’s emotional wellness and managing
their stress levels. It was pervading.
Even inside, they literally had staff on board just for that very reason, because it can in fact,
make a huge difference in someone’s ability to respond well to treatment to heal. And arguably,
if they’re doing the right things outside of the treatments, that can make a huge difference in
their ability to change and do things well.
[Dani]
Yeah, I think connection to community is really important. I’ve gone through stretches in my life
where I’ve had a ton of it. And I’ve gone through stretches in my life where it feels like I have
none.
And there’s no question where I feel better, where I feel more hopeful, where I feel more
powered. So I really do like that. Now, his dietary advice left some things to be desired, in my
opinion.
Let’s hear it. Apologies for all the throat clearing, guys. So it was also a very low fat diet, fewer
than 10% of calories coming from fats.
And of course, that was not oil, right?
[Giacomo]
He stated the number 10%, as in it was 10% or lower. Right. Which literally draws a line in the
sentence saying, people start to take that at face value.
And they’re like, well, it has to be below 10%. And then people start looking at the research and
evidence or the messaging and how they’re proving that it’s below 10%. And they start to hold
on to that idea.
And it’s limited in that way.
[Dani]
Which I’m thinking like in an 1800 calorie diet, that would be less than 20 grams a day. Exactly.
That’s very low.
That’s really, really low. Not great. But again, if I think back to this time period, I feel like that
was kind of a zeitgeist, was just like fat is bad, fat is bad, fat is bad.
But carbohydrates were like totally fine. I mean, in actuality, they’re all fine. They’re all healthy
in the right dosages from the right things, right?So he initially started working largely with heart disease. Again, heart disease seems to be a
very strong thread through pretty much every single one of these doctors, which I think really
speaks to how powerful a plant-based lifestyle is for preventing heart disease.
[Giacomo]
I have a couple outliers, diet stuff, like bariatric surgeons and stuff like that. But the vast
majority of them, cardiologists.
[Dani]
Yeah.
[Giacomo]
Yes. Slash surgeons.
[Dani]
But he did eventually get more into preventing cancer and preventing Alzheimer’s. And a lot of,
I shouldn’t say a lot, some of the criticisms were that he leaned too heavily on diet relating to
things like cancer and Alzheimer’s.
[Giacomo]
As in causing it.
[Dani]
Like you could eat a certain way and prevent Alzheimer’s. Which, I mean, there’s certainly better
and worse ways to eat, but that’s true. You can’t just eat a certain way and prevent Alzheimer’s.
So yeah, I guess that was one of the criticisms. And of course, I mean, I remember watching
some of his videos. He was very kumbaya, and that was a big criticism.
And I can understand why that would make it harder for some people to take him more
seriously, which is kind of a shame.
[Giacomo]
It is. Because what do you want? Someone that’s flat and dry, completely objective.
At some point or another, you have to inject a little personality if you want people to actually
listen to what you’re saying. Plus the whole idea of creating community and bringing people
together and leading from a place of, hey, love. That’s kind of cool.
Not that it doesn’t have its drawbacks, but still.[Dani]
Yeah. I think people do kind of want somebody with a very authoritative tone when they’re a
doctor.
[Giacomo]
True.
[Dani]
I think that’s largely it. You don’t want your doctor to seem too far out there, I guess.
[Giacomo]
I suppose. Yeah. I guess.
[Dani]
Like, I mean, I’m trying to think if I was in a doctor’s office and they started passing out hugs, I
don’t know. I might reconsider, even though I believe in the power of a hug. Okay.
So, so far, we’ve talked about two people that were… Oh, I should also mention. I totally forgot
to mention.
Dean Ornish’s plant did have some low-fat dairy products in it.
[Giacomo]
Oh, interesting.
[Dani]
I think a lot of people don’t know that.
[Giacomo]
Did he give reasoning? Did you get that far when you were looking into his stuff? Nope.
Because I wonder if it’s one of those things where moderation, not something I necessarily
recommend, however, moderation, if we can… Or if there was actual, hey, this is all right.
[Dani]
I mean, I don’t know.
[Giacomo]
From a prevention-based standpoint.[Dani]
I do not know.
[Giacomo]
Versus a cause-based standpoint.
[Dani]
But that was obviously a criticism from vegans. Yeah. Was that he low-fat dairy products.
[Giacomo]
Yeah. I could see the idea of leaving room for habit and behavior change when it comes to…
And also to create some room for argument, debate, research to prove things are less wrong.
And also to not shame others when it comes to eating in moderation. But to actually say, hey,
this is totally okay. And that’s a blanket statement.
I’d be curious to hear their position on that. If it was outside of that citing, okay, this is maybe
even health promoting. Like, I wonder.
[Dani]
I can read it, but I have not.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
But so far, both of the people were very low-fat, very low-fat. That’s one of the camps that came
out of my research. Like there are doctors in the low, super low-fat camp.
And then there are doctors who are not. That was pretty major. Those were some pretty major
differences.
So the next person I think in line here is probably Caldwell Esselstyn.
[Giacomo]
Okay.
[Dani]
And maybe you guys are familiar with him. So he was featured heavily in the movie Forks Over
Knives. His son, Rip Esselstyn wrote, what was it called?Engine 22.
[Giacomo]
Engine 2. You added a number to that one.
[Dani]
Engine 2 Diet. And yeah, they give him and his wife give talks all over the place. They’re still
giving talks and they’re like up in their 80s.
He’s incredibly charismatic.
[Giacomo]
Passionate.
[Dani]
Very passionate. He actually worked with my stepdad because my stepdad had a pretty intense
heart disease. And he is a medical doctor, a cardiothoracic surgeon.
So literally a heart surgeon who developed a protocol to help people and reverse heart disease.
I will never forget the quote from Forks Over Knives where he said, heart disease is a toothless
paper tiger that need never exist. Uh, I never forgot that because it was just so fascinating to
me at the time when that came out.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
That heart disease could be completely avoided by specific protocols. And his protocol is whole
food, plant-based, no oils, no nuts and seeds.
[Giacomo]
He leans in on veggies too. Really big on veggies.
[Dani]
Very heavy on veggies. What is it like six, six servings of leafy greens a day? I think.
[Giacomo]
Go for it. I feel like you have to, I feel like it’s a good idea to advocate that people eat their
veggies because it’s usually the first thing that people decide to compromise with when they’rebeing flexible or whatever. They’re just not in the mood to eat their veggies.
So I kind of like that. Honestly. It’s not like he’s saying this is the only way.
It’s like, well, crowd your plate with vegetables, so whatever other whole food. So I dig it.
[Dani]
So he was at the Cleveland Clinic and I believe that’s where he worked all the way. Like, I mean,
he was still working. I don’t know if he’s still working with patients, but he was still working with
patients up until fewer than 10 years ago.
Because I know, because he literally had phone calls with my stepdad. And in his own of people
that he worked with, he had really, really good results. Virtually nobody that followed his
protocol, heart events, cardiac events.
And he was doing stress tests, EKGs, lipid panels, like legitimately doing tests on people. You
could say there’s a bias there, obviously, because it’s his own patients. And they’re the patients
who stuck to the protocol.
I then posed the question, what percentage of people were able to stick to that protocol?
Because if it was 10%, then 90% couldn’t do it. My stepdad couldn’t do it.
And he did really, really good. He tried really hard. I would say he did it 90% of the time.
He did still die of a cardiac event. But not under Esselstyn’s care much later. Long story.
Don’t want to get into it. But if 90% of people can’t stick to the protocol, maybe the protocol
needs to be tweaked, I guess is what I’m saying.
[Giacomo]
Right. Not revamped, tweaked.
[Dani]
Yeah. But that’s still very impressive in terms of the protocol itself. If basically everybody who
followed it didn’t have a cardiac event, that speaks very strongly to this protocol.
[Giacomo]
Let me ask you a question. Rather than continuing on with this list of it, because we’re going to
run into some recurring themes over here. If you, in hindsight, saw this, the writing on the wall,
and risk-free, zero consequences, you could just, you’re flying the wall right now.
This is a scenario. We’re making this up. You could do something differently with this protocol.
What would it be?[Dani]
Well, having never actually gone through it myself, I don’t know if he just plunges them in on
day one. Day one, you don’t eat meat anymore. You don’t eat dairy.
You don’t eat eggs. You don’t eat fats. You eat fruits, vegetables, beans, legumes, the end.
If he’s throwing people into that on day one, which again, I don’t know if they are. They could
have an easing period where they ease people into it. I would think that would probably be
better.
[Giacomo]
And also what happens after the fact. So you can’t blame someone when they are helping
people in a literal do or die situation. That being said, what happens once they are getting
closer towards stabilizing, what happens after the fact?
How do you grease the wheel and get them in?
[Dani]
It actually said that if they renege on the protocol, they will lose progress that they made. So it
seems to me…
[Giacomo]
Fear.
[Dani]
Huh?
[Giacomo]
Fear is what I would feel in a situation like that after the fact.
[Dani]
If I was in a situation where I thought that I was developing heart disease, I would be very
scared, period. Right there. Yes.
You know, I think one of the things that I’ve gathered from this research is like, don’t get sick in
the first place. Because it seems like once you get sick, some or one of these things, you really
do have to overhaul a lot of things. And the diet that likely will help you reverse your illness is
probably a lot more extreme than it needed to be been healthier in the first place.
Just had healthier habits in the first place.[Giacomo]
I’m still fascinated and enamored with the idea of what happens afterwards if you’re fortunate
enough to reverse things.
[Dani]
You live on that diet for the rest of your life. That’s… that is it.
[Giacomo]
Yeah?
[Dani]
Yeah.
[Giacomo]
Yeah?
[Dani]
Yes. I mean, I don’t… Maybe you can get a tiny bit more lax, but you’re not gonna be stir-frying
stuff, that’s for sure.
[Giacomo]
I see in me, I look to… I’m not trying to blow holes in anything. I look toward the post-reversal
prevention period in someone’s life.
And say those words… I forgot what you were just saying. I’m losing my train of thought.
[Dani]
If you renege on it, you lose your progress. If you make progress, you live on this diet for the
rest of your life.
[Giacomo]
Something along those lines. Like, where is that… not gray area, but where is that tiny little bit
of give where you can feel like a person and a human without feeling like this is the end if I do…
if I deviate a little bit. Because unfortunately, even from my perspective, even those who are
militaristic about this stuff because they know they need to be for the rest of their lives, they’re
far and few in between from what I’ve seen.
[Dani]Yes.
[Giacomo]
And so what do you do with the rest of everyone so that they’re not…
[Dani]
Some of the other doctors on this list might be able to answer that question.
[Giacomo]
Go for it.
[Dani]
But I will say in 50 years, Esselstyn’s message has not changed. He has not relaxed on the no
fat, no added fats stance. I don’t think that this is a diet that someone needs to follow unless
they need to follow it, I guess.
Like, he works with people who have heart disease.
[Giacomo]
Right.
[Dani]
And there are benefits to eating a moderate amount of healthy fats. There are lots of benefits
to it, actually. There’s hormonal benefits.
There’s vitamin synthesis benefits. There’s anti-inflammatory benefits. If you’re an active
person, an athlete, a young person, you’re not who he’s talking to.
And that is one of the takeaways, I think, for several of the doctors that I’ve encountered over
my time as a vegan is their advice is fantastic for their demograph that they work with. Clearly,
right? Clearly.
The results don’t lie. If you’re not that person, you know, take what you need and leave the rest.
[Giacomo]
Right.
[Dani]
Fair. So that’s the third person who’s low to no fat, right? Let’s move on to one of my favorites,
Dr. Neil Barnard.[Giacomo]
Okay.
[Dani]
Yeah? Yeah, I’m with it. Got anything you want to say about him?
I feel like I’m doing all the talking.
[Giacomo]
No, no, no. That’s totally okay. Dr. Neil Barnard founded the Physicians Committee for
Responsible Medicine. He’s well respected in his inner circle of professionals, amongst other
doctors who actually disagree or don’t align, I should say, or somewhere in between with his
dietary principles, which is a hard thing to do when you have a specific kind of agenda or a
specific kind of messaging and you’re a public advocate as well. He is known for making the
research accessible and also distilling it down in a simple, easy-to-use way amongst the public. I
mean, all of that is good.
He’s known for promoting diet when it comes to health, but unlike some of the others that we
are discussing, he promotes a flexible approach. So he leaves a little bit of room for transition,
change, people coming from different sets of beliefs and whatnot. Accomplished dude overall
in terms of getting people to make some changes, not ignoring nuance, allowing room for
conversation, putting the information out there.
And obviously he has his own credibility as far as his work outside of his associations with other
doctors. So honestly, from what I can see over here, I’m a fan. I also like the fact that he says
that diet is not a cure-all, which is really, really cool.
[Dani]
Diet is not a cure-all. It can be a cure a lot. It can be an improve a lot.
Improving your diet can improve so many aspects of your life for sure. But I feel like when a lot
of folks come from this stance of diet is the thing, diet is the medicine for you, if someone does
it and then they don’t get better, they feel like they did something wrong. And they may very
well have not done anything wrong.
So it just leaves them feeling like, well, what’s wrong with me? Why didn’t this work for me? So
Neil Barnard might be my favorite person on this entire list.
Actually, I’ve been to many of his lectures. I love listening to him talk. I think the fact that he
does leave room for imperfection, like just recognizes that people are imperfect and they’re not
going to follow exactly what you say right on day one.You know, where is the line that if I cross this, then I’m in like rough territory health-wise.
Where is it? I really like that about him.
And I also, he’s an incredible animal rights guy. So back in the 90s, he leaned heavily into
animal rights stuff, trying to get animal testing, like he rallies against animal testing, which I
think is really cool. He actually was one of the people who changed it.
So we use crash test dummies in cars instead of dogs. That’s what we used to use was dogs.
And he helped change that.
So, I think it’s really cool. So although he doesn’t work with patients directly, he kind of has
moved up the chain and actually works a lot more on trying to change policy, which I think is
amazing. Like he’s trying to get dairy out of public schools.
Right. Just doing some really, really interesting things. I wouldn’t say he like specializes in any
one particular disease.
Like he really does a lot of research on all of them. He’s published like a bajillion books. Really
understated dude.
[Giacomo]
Like- Very much so.
[Dani]
I think so.
[Giacomo]
Which makes sense because if you don’t have, if you don’t lead with a big ego or a very
enigmatic energetic personality, or your message is getting too strong and you allow room for
a lot of conversation, sometimes some of your work can be overlooked, unfortunately. Or
whatever it is that you’re trying to promote.
[Dani]
But he does have a couple criticisms too.
[Giacomo]
Let’s hear it.
[Dani]
So he too is a low fat guy.
[Giacomo]Yes, he is.
[Dani]
Although significantly less than the others. I want to say his is around 15%. Okay.
Is like his recommendation.
[Giacomo]
Still hard boundaries, hard lines.
[Dani]
Still low. But not, it’s not as hard of a line. You know, it’s like here’s where you should be, get
close to it.
Which I think is fair.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
And also, obviously a lot of people do feel like he has a political agenda and they don’t like that
in-
[Giacomo]
I don’t know if that’s fair though that you can, I suppose there’s some bias there with your work
and that may cloud your judgment when you’re, but I would like to think that any one of these
doctors who are intentionally public advocates to create change, I feel like there’s some degree
of that that needs to be out there, right?
[Dani]
But I mean, he does other things. He leads and publishes papers in peer-reviewed medical
journals. Like if it’s making it to peer-reviewed medical journals, that’s a pretty good sign.
He’s advocating for more nutrition education in medical school. Like how many of us have
heard your medical doctor, your primary care doctor probably had like one class on nutrition in
their entire eight years in school. So he’s trying to change that, you know, which I think would
be great because it’s important for doctors to have more than like the most basic of
understanding.
[Giacomo]Any other criticisms?
[Dani]
That’s all that I- What about his thoughts on protein? What are his thoughts on protein?
[Giacomo]
Well, the idea that he doesn’t talk about it all that much, doesn’t criticize and demonize it,
doesn’t talk about the benefits of it as well. Again, doctors, right? They’re not fitness coaches.
They’re not speaking to athletes. They’re not even necessarily speaking to the youth as what I
find is a flaw amongst most of them, honestly. Because the aging population, just when you
think demographically, who you’re trying to protect as a doctor- Who listens to the doctors.
[Dani]
It’s like you listen to the doctors when you need the doctors and a lot of people don’t need the
doctors till they’re older, so.
[Giacomo]
And the agenda, of course, because the more you age, the higher the risk there is that you’re
going to wind up, whether it’s lifestyle, genetic, some combination of who knows what, be in a
position where you need a doctor to help you reverse, minimize the risk of disease.
[Dani]
What was I just going to say?
[Giacomo]
Sorry. About the- We were talking about protein.
[Dani]
Yep. We were talking about- Just let me think. Oh, okay.
I remember. So like you said, it doesn’t work with athletes. Doctors, medical doctors are not
trying to get you fit in the sense that we think of fit as fitness.
They are not trying to get you on the cover of a magazine. They’re trying to get your
biomarkers into healthy ranges and if they are in healthy ranges, you are healthy. They have
succeeded.
So I think in those terms, I don’t really think you need to talk to him very much. If you’re eating
enough food, you’re eating enough protein to stay in those healthy ranges. It’s a banger.Okay. So yeah, that fitness coaches are going to have different things that they emphasize.
Physique coaches, bodybuilders, we’ve talked about bodybuilding, not always being healthy a
million times.
We don’t need to go over that right now, but just keep that in mind when you say like, well, they
don’t really talk about protein. I don’t really think they need to talk about protein. I mean, they
certainly talk about animal protein and why you shouldn’t eat it.
[Giacomo]
Although people do go out of their way to avoid plant-based protein foods.
[Dani]
Hang on. We’re about to get to one of the protein haters.
[Giacomo]
Oh boy. I wonder if this is the same person that I have here.
[Dani]
No.
[Giacomo]
Probably not.
[Dani]
It’s not. He’ll be the next one. We’ll see.
Okay. So T. Colin Campbell is going to be the next one.
Actually, you’re right. Garth Davis might be a little bit earlier than T. Colin Campbell.
Again, some of these might be out of order. T. Colin Campbell.
Most of you know him from the China study. Him and his son published the China study in
2005, which I definitely thought it was published way before that. 2005.
[Giacomo]
Not that long ago, no?
[Dani]
No, I didn’t know that either. It was a huge, I never say this word, epidemiological study.[Giacomo]
You got it.
[Dani]
In China, studying their habits and what the research found was that animal protein turns on
the cancer gene in epigenetics. We all have a cancer gene. Animal protein seems to turn it on.
Specifically casein, which is what they studied. And it was, I think, a 30-year study. It was a very
long study.
Very huge. And basically that study said animal protein turns on cancer. Don’t eat animal
protein.
Good summary?
[Giacomo]
Sure.
[Dani]
He’s another one who he is still up and about. And did he just have his, he just had a birthday
that was very shocking how high the number was.
[Giacomo]
It was nine something.
[Dani]
Ninety something.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
And usually he’s at the cruise and he’s up at five in the morning walking the track. So again, like
some of these people, they’re worth listening to. They have some very interesting knowledge
for sure.
But I think that was mainly his biggest takeaway was whole food, plant-based diet, no animal
products was the best way to avoid getting cancer. And that study was very, very impactful on a
lot of people. I think it was the catalyst for a lot of people to make a change.But that study, I think it was so popular that it came under fire a lot. That study got a lot of
criticism over the years. And it’s still, you can still find videos of it being quote unquote
debunked today.
[Giacomo]
There’s nothing else to compare it to.
[Dani]
I think that when you’re looking at a study of that size over that amount of time, yeah, you’re
going to find flaws in it. Like you can’t do these studies perfectly. You cannot isolate for all of
the variables.
If you want to study groups that large, it’s far from a perfect study. You know, a lot of people
just say correlation does not equal causation. Say that pertaining to the study.
[Giacomo]
Right.
[Dani]
It’s oversimplifying that it makes animal protein sound more dangerous than it is. Yeah.
[Giacomo]
In the spirit of furthering the study to prove that it’s less wrong over time, that animal protein
can literally turn on and off the IGF-1 gene and you can literally see it going on that train of
thought. It can be a little limiting if you’re trying to look at the other possibility, excuse me,
possibilities of whether or not other proteins will do the same. If it’s not animal protein, for
example.
It’s just, it was a little too narrowly focused and a little too simplistic. I mean, I get the idea. It
was a study and just focus on, but.
[Dani]
I think the cool thing about it and why I don’t think that it was intentionally biased. I don’t think
there was any malicious intent to put out a flawed study because Colin Campbell actually went
in there, I believe, to prove the opposite. Like that is what he, that was his hypothesis.
That’s what he was hoping to prove was that animal protein was like protein in general is good
for you. So he, if I remember, cause I did read this book. If I remember, he was really surprised
by the results that they found.
One of my own personal criticisms of the China study for years was that everything in that bookwas talking about animal protein. Well, what about plant protein? Cause then the whole vegan
community is out here being like, don’t eat protein.
It’ll give you cancer.
[Giacomo]
Crazy. And then when that question was proposed, the answer was, we don’t know. For a while.
[Dani]
For a while. I think. Colin Campbell actually has said plant protein is not the same as animal
protein.
And it’s totally fine to consume a high plant protein diet.
[Giacomo]
It took some time to hear that though.
[Dani]
It definitely did.
[Giacomo]
And that did some damage.
[Dani]
Yes. And that’s, and I don’t think that he’s said it like big and publicly or anything. And I really
wish he would, but also like, let the man rest, please.
But yeah, so a lot of damage I think was done in the vegan community from that, where people
are afraid of higher protein diets, potentially causing cancer.
[Giacomo]
Well, that bled over into larger communities that were more mainstream because of those who
are promoting plant-based diet, those coming into it and then leaving.
[Dani]
The other interesting thing. So Giacomo and I were kind of aware of this for a long time, that
even though many of these doctors were saying whole food plant-based, no oil, no
supplements, no this, no that. Do not forget that vegan protein started as a supplement store.
And some of these folks bought protein powder from us. So back then we were even likescratching our heads like, wait a minute. Didn’t you just tell a whole room of people not to take
protein powder?
And now here you are buying it. But it comes back to like, who are they talking to? They are not
their patient, you know?
So I think that’s interesting. And yeah, I love watching Colin Campbell talk just in general. But I
do want to talk about Garth Davis, Dr. Garth Davis. I am super curious to hear what you put
here.
[Giacomo]
Dr. Garth Davis, author of Proteinaholic.
[Dani]
Proteinaholic, yep.
[Giacomo]
Known for a bit of a dogmatic approach when it comes to dietary recommendations. And he’s
also known to, I don’t want to say attack necessarily, but he gets into it.
[Dani]
He gets into it. That is something I wrote down.
[Giacomo]
With others opposing viewpoints, he comes for you.
[Dani]
He’s come for me before.
[Giacomo]
Yeah, a little outspoken we’ll say.
[Dani]
I didn’t do anything. It was just a post that I made. It wasn’t to him or about him or anything,
but he came for me.
And then hysterically enough, asked to like feature a picture of Giacomo on his thing.
[Giacomo]
That’s another thing too. He’s into aesthetics. He’s a little into body composition as well.[Dani]
Well, that’s fine. That’s totally cool. Obviously, we love that.
But it’s like talking out of both sides of your mouth a little bit to be like protein is the devil. We
overhype protein, which is true. In America, we do overhype protein.
If you have fitness goals, if you have muscle building goals, protein is more important, period,
the end. So can’t say protein is the devil and then feature a bunch of vegan athletes that
absolutely are taking protein.
[Giacomo]
I have a memory of when he was downplaying the importance of calorie intake and he wasn’t
saying he was arguing that it’s not calories in versus calories out or I’m misremembering.
[Dani]
I don’t remember that. So I’m not sure. But he’s a bariatric surgeon.
That’s what he does, weight loss surgery, performs weight loss surgery. But I think he does a
really good job in taking a more holistic approach to that because a lot of doctors, clinics will do
different kinds of bariatric surgeries and just send people on their way. Now, you don’t get to
be the size of somebody that needs bariatric surgery without having some pretty poor habits.
And if you don’t address those physical, mental, psychological, social reasons that caused you
to overeat to that point in the first place, you’re going to end up in that situation again. So the
fact that hit him and his team or whomever, they take the time to really teach how to improve
their nutritional habits in conjunction with the weight loss surgery. Like, I think that’s fantastic.
I wish more doctors would take that approach. And he also, obviously, even if I don’t agree with
everything he says, obviously he does take an approach trying to help people prevent getting in
that situation in the first place.
[Giacomo]
Yeah, I have some mixed feelings about the approach though, and the war, like the hardcore
war and the very, I think of the words that I want to use over here, but one dimensional
perhaps focus on speaking out against animal protein at any cost is including those who are
whatever he’s taking people down essentially, which is fine. I suppose, you know, get people
talking.
[Dani]
There’s lots of people online who make a full career online debunking, attacking, whatever you
want to call it, coming for other people on the internet. That’s not my style. I have no interest indoing it, but it’s a thing.
[Giacomo]
But is he shaming plant protein or getting a certain amount of protein and he’s specifically,
unlike the other doctors, he’s actually targeting the fitness industry. He’s targeting athletes.
He’s targeting people who want to lose weight.
[Dani]
I don’t know anymore.
[Giacomo]
Now we’re speaking to a specific set of people, right? So what is your messaging to them?
Because with the other doctors, it was like, well, okay.
[Dani]
So it depends on where you’re coming from, right? Like if you’re coming from the stance of like
20 years ago, bodybuilders trying to get in 300 grams of protein a day, like, yeah, that’s
ridiculous. We can tell people they don’t need to do that.
Protein is not that important. You don’t need to be getting 300 grams, period. Like agreed,
totally.
But on the flip side of that saying, don’t even think about protein. Don’t worry about it at all. If
you eat enough, you’ll get enough, uh, to build muscle, to maintain muscle, to lose muscle, to
lose body fat.
Then I don’t, uh, I don’t agree because I do see people who come to me and I read their food
journals and they’re getting 30 grams of protein a day and you know, they’re not going to die.
They’re fine, but they’re not going to reach the goals that they’re telling me they want to reach
that. And there’s, there’s things I like about him.
He’s an evidence-based type of guy. Like he references studies. I think all of that’s great, but I
think, you know, being evidence-based, it’s, it’s a few things.
It’s, it’s not just the studies. It’s also your own lifetime of experience as a professional. And you
got to be careful with that, right?
You got to be open to the fact that you can be wrong. You got to be open to the fact that you
can be wrong. We’ve been wrong about stuff and we’ll be again and we will be again.
And we’ve come out and talked about the stuff that we used to think that now we do not think. I
don’t know. I don’t really know where to go with that, but just an example of you know, how all
of these doctors do disagree.And I did want to note, as far as my research showed me, he does still currently work with
patients and a lot of these doctors don’t currently work with patients. And I think that that
makes a big difference. I think it’s probably really easy to kind of get removed from the actual
nature of human beings when you don’t currently work with patients.
Like it’s easy to tell people what to do from your high horse. Not that these people are on a
high horse. I shouldn’t have said it like that.
But it’s easy to tell people what to do when you’re not actually the one that has to try to get
them to do it. You know? Yep.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha.
[Dani]
Yeah. Anyway, so no shade at Dr. Garth Davis. It’s okay if we have differing…
[Giacomo]
Interesting personality.
[Dani]
Opinions.
[Giacomo]
Honestly.
[Dani]
Okay. Who should we do next here?
[Giacomo]
All ears.
[Dani]
So I think… Oh, Michael Greger. Hello.
I was about to say…
[Giacomo]
Michael Greger.[Dani]
So yeah, he’s been around the same time period as the last two, I would say. Do we even need
to do Michael Greger? I feel like he is the most famous vegan doctor currently and probably for
the last several years in the world.
[Giacomo]
Yep.
[Dani]
Yeah? Would you say so?
[Giacomo]
I think so.
[Dani]
He runs nutritionfacts.org. He is a medical doctor. I was going to say was a medical doctor, but
he is a medical doctor, but he doesn’t work with patients currently.
He’s a full-time researcher, full-time educator, full-time author. I didn’t know this. Maybe you
knew this.
That he reads every single nutrition study that’s in English every year. Every single one. He
reads them.
Every single English nutrition study that comes out, he reads it.
[Giacomo]
How is that possible?
[Dani]
You’re a full-time researcher. I guess that’s possible. Interesting.
So yeah, I didn’t know that. I think that’s pretty cool. I think that he does, him and his site and
his team, they do a fantastic job citing their sources.
I think that’s great. I think he has really got his finger on the pulse of the general. So he’s not
talking to heart disease patients.
He’s not talking to cancer patients or obese people. He’s talking to the general population,
which of course includes some of all of those people, but it also includes people who don’t have
those diseases and are just quote-unquote regular people that want to get a little bit healthier,maybe drop a few pounds, et cetera. I think that’s awesome.
[Giacomo]
He’s got a simple program. He doesn’t promote supplementation. He prides himself on not
being focused on profit or funding.
He says that diet is first, medical intervention is second, as opposed to saying one or the other
or speaking out against something.
[Dani]
I just want to back up. You said something like he doesn’t promote supplements. You mean he
doesn’t promote supplement companies, right?
[Giacomo]
Correct. He’s not funded or backed by anyone.
[Dani]
Okay, just wanted to make sure because he does recommend certain supplements.
[Giacomo]
So I should be very clear here. Yes, he’s not backed by any particular companies.
[Dani]
So he still recommends a, what would be considered a low fat diet. But again, I would consider,
to me, I would consider it more of a low to moderate fat diet. It’s not 10%, it’s not 15%.
I actually don’t even know if given a straight percent. I don’t love percents in the first place, but
he has the Daily Dozen, right? And I think the Daily Dozen is awesome, actually.
So it’s just, oh, eat these foods every day and you’re setting yourself up the best you can. And
it’s not, don’t eat this, don’t eat this, don’t eat this. And don’t get me wrong.
He absolutely does talk about the studies that show the problems with animal-based foods, but
he also shows problems with processed foods and various types of foods that might or might
not be animal-based. I like that. I think that’s a more nuanced approach.
I don’t think he’s under any illusion that everybody’s going to go vegan and follow his protocol
like perfectly. It doesn’t seem to me. He’s entertaining people.
[Giacomo]
Depending on.[Dani]
Most people enjoy watching him. They think he’s kind of fun to watch. I’m sure some people
think he’s kind of annoying, but I think he’s kind of fun to watch.
[Giacomo]
There is some talk from what I researched suggesting that maybe he doesn’t give enough
attention to the studies or the possibility of animal products in moderation or other studies that
aren’t backing his bias. It’s not that he doesn’t include them. Like you said, he just doesn’t give
enough attention to it.
[Dani]
I would agree. I also think that sometimes he focuses really hard on like kind of weak data, like
he overstates kind of weak data that is plant-based. And I don’t begrudge other human beings
for having natural biases.
We all do. But I think it’s something that you should be really careful of because I think as soon
as you say, if you eat any animal products at all, you’re going to be unhealthy or even imply
that. I think you really lose a lot of credibility because we see people who do consume animal
products who are healthy by all biomarkers, right?
I wish they wouldn’t eat them for a lot of reasons, many reasons. But to say if you eat any
animal products at all, you’re going to be unhealthy and have chronic disease. I don’t think that
is true.
I think you have a better chance of not having. But just got to be careful word thing.
[Giacomo]
Does he speak more to the, to gen pop, to cast? Does he speak more to everyone and try to
cast a wider net as opposed to his peers, for example? Let’s see.
[Dani]
Yes, he’s talking to the average, he’s talking to the regular person. He’s not talking in his videos.
I’m sure he talks to other professionals, right?
But in his videos, he’s talking to the average Joe, which is great because we need those studies
interpreted and explained in plain English. But it also means that the average Joe is not going to
go read that paper and recognize that, Oh, maybe that wasn’t such a great study. And I never
think it’s a great idea to focus on single studies.
They can be interesting. They could be like, Oh, this makes me think more research should be
done on this. There could be something to this, but a single study, you got to prove that it canbe replicated.
But on the whole, I, I think he’s great. Agreed. I think he’s probably done more good for this
lifestyle than any of the other doctors here so far.
My last three that I have here are newer, younger. So let’s start with Dr. Danielle Bilardo.
[Giacomo]
We don’t have that one.
[Dani]
Okay. We’ve met her. We met her at that thing we went to in Florida, influencer retreat.
[Giacomo]
I’m still the same.
[Dani]
I hate even saying that, but she was there. So she, I don’t know how old she is, but she’s
younger than everybody else that I’ve mentioned so far. And she is a cardiologist.
And I think I’ve seen interviews where she says she is the most hated vegan doctor. I really like
her. I like her a lot.
She is an active cardiologist, board certified, certified in internal medicine. She actively works
with patients. And again, the people that work with patients currently, they’re just going to
have a different feel, right?
Think about teachers that work in classrooms versus people all the way up the chain on the
education board. Who do you think has a better sense of what’s really going on in classrooms
versus the teachers? So doctors that are currently working with patients, I put a lot of weight
into what they say about like the vibe, right?
I feel that with our clients, like the vibe has changed over 15 years and I’m sure it has in
patients as well. So she is vegan herself, like ethical, vegan, full vegan. But she promotes a plant
predominant diet or predominantly plant-based diet, but she does not demonize the intake of
some animal products.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha.
[Dani]
And I think it’s for the reasons that I just said, right? About the Michael Greger studies. And like,you can’t just say it’s always going to kill you, right?
Because there’s evidence that it’s not correct. She recognizes that can’t just waltz in and tell a
patient to change everything and they’re going to go home and do it. That’s not actually how it
works.
So how do you get them to move down that spectrum towards a more plant-based, more
plants on their plate, fewer animal products on their plate. And I think that is, I think that if I
was a doctor, which I’m not, but if I was a doctor, I see the approach because I think it would
help more people on the whole. Yeah.
You might still get that patient here or there that really does it really goes full plant-based,
right? And gets great results. But you might have way more of your patients that improve
somewhat, you know, and hopefully see that it worked do a little bit more and a little bit more
versus scaring people off on day one.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
So she is very evidence-based, very evidence-based. Um, like if you follow any of the other
evidence-based fitness professionals or Dr. Lane Norton, um, Dr. Goodness. Why am I
forgetting his name?
Spencer, Dr. Spencer, Nadolski, Spencer Nadolski.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha. Okay.
[Dani]
Him. I’ve seen her on Dr. Mike. If you guys watch Dr. Mike on YouTube, I really like not vegan at
all. Um, you know, she’s, she’s pretty well known in a lot of the current big name communities,
very evidence-based, which also means she claps back at a lot of bullshit, a lot of bullshit, uh,
both in and outside of the day.
[Giacomo]
Right.
[Dani]
So people touting like detoxes and other BS that are not vegan. She’ll make posts about that.
But also people in the vegan community that are posting some crazy stuff.She’ll call them out too. And a lot of vegans don’t like her because she doesn’t push a hundred
percent vegan lifestyle, even though she is herself vegan. I don’t actually think pushing a
hundred percent lifestyle works.
[Giacomo]
No, it doesn’t.
[Dani]
Even if you want that, which I do want for people, but, um, I, I think she’s, I think she’s pretty
great, but yeah, she absolutely is. She’s not afraid to bump heads with some of these other
doctors. She doesn’t promote a low fat diet.
She promotes a Mediterranean diet.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha. Interesting.
[Dani]
Yeah. So if you had to put a name on the diet, she tries to get her patients to eat. It is a
Mediterranean high plant-based diet, but it has fats in it and it has a moderate amount of fats
in it.
And like, she is in there. She is, she is up in there in people’s business currently with their
hearts. And this is what she believes the evidence suggests is currently.
[Giacomo]
So two questions here because of how consistent I’m keep using the word messaging. It’s kind
of annoying me, but it’s too consistent. The messaging here is pretty consistent, low fat and
don’t focus on protein.
And sometimes both of those things can be played out to a fault both in the way that the
programming or the conversation goes between doctor to patient public advocate to person
listening and adapting and adopting change. So where do we go here when it comes to fat and
where do we go here when it comes to protein so that people don’t overdo it or they’re not
scared of either or right? How, what, how do we as fitness coaches make this more
approachable when it comes to just, it’s not just carbohydrates.
We don’t want people to start to develop orthorexic eating habits or confusion with what to eat
or fear around what to eat, what not to eat. So my thought process, when I hear low fat, I’m
like, oh no, like if I get in 50 grams of fat, am I going to be in trouble? Like if it were me looking
at this, even knowing what I know, I’m trying to put myself in the shoes of someone whodoesn’t, never heard of a macronutrient, just coming across all this, watching our thing and
you’re like, oh crap.
So like, what’s low fat? And like, what if I, what if I have a half an avocado? What if I’m eating a
moderate amount of fat?
Am I going to develop a disease? Should this be the way that I’m eating for overall health? Even
whether I’m sick or not?
Like how do you, what’s your conversation around that? Like what do you think? I, I would do.
[Dani]
I think it’s highly individual first of all. And I think everybody that has access should be getting
their blood markers done yearly if they can, because that, that’s the real answer, right? Like
some fitness coach that doesn’t do your blood work isn’t going to have that answer.
And even a fitness coach that does have your blood work can’t give you that answer like legally.
So, but it depends on the, to me, it very much depends on the person. Are you a small woman?
Are you a giant man? Are you trying to lose weight? Are you trying to get bigger?
Like what are your goals? Because that matters. And that changes my answer.
[Giacomo]
And what about protein?
[Dani]
Protein? I just say the same thing I’ve said forever. 0.8 to 1.2 grams per pound of lean body
mass.
[Giacomo]
If you are trying to reverse disease, do you need to, that number to be lower?
[Dani]
There’s no research to support that currently. I got two other doctors.
[Giacomo]
Go for it.
[Dani]
Dr. Columbus Best, Dr. Columbus Baptiste. So he’s a newer one on the scene to me. Um, he isan interventional cardiologist who was chief of cardiology at Kaiser Permanente Riverside.
Um, and he takes a really interesting approach. So again, cardiologists, this is another thread
that runs through many of these people. They are heart doctors, good stuff to take away.
Um, he was doing, you know, stents and meds and surgeries on people, but it wasn’t like fixing
them. Then he went vegan and noticed real big benefits. And now that’s what he promotes to
his patients.
But I would say it’s basically a whole food, whole food, plant-based diet towards the more, I
would say towards the more extreme side with his like rules. But he also is very flexible because
he recognizes human nature. Um, but the interesting thing is he also takes a social justice sort
of approach to it.
Um, that might not even be the right terminology. Okay.
[Giacomo]
I gotcha.
[Dani]
So he has a holistic method called the slave food project, exploring how health disparities
disproportionately affect communities of color and how diet systems and history play a role,
highlighting the structural and social barriers that lead to poor health in underserved
communities, education, and empowerment, especially in black and Brown communities. So
that is his audience, right? Like he is speaking to the general public, but specifically people in
black and Brown communities, underserved communities, recognizing that there are, um,
racial and historical discrepancies in healthcare and focusing on those folks.
And there’s, you know, research to suggest that, uh, well in black and Brown communities get
diabetes at much higher rates than in white communities. So I think his messaging is going to
be quite a bit different. Even if, even if the plan is similar, the messaging and, and even the
source is probably going to be differently effective.
[Giacomo]
But that’s very clearly the approach. I have dr. Melanie joy doing something similar and it’s a
twofold multifaceted approach where she leans in on psychology and also politics, politics, um,
different groups of people.
So sociology and psychology, all of it. And that’s perhaps limiting, but at least it’s narrowly
focused in a way where it’s not quite as, uh, you can’t criticize it as much because she’s staying
in that specific lane and, and promoting. So people, it’s overall well received her message.
[Dani]Yeah. And you know, some of the criticisms are like, it’s too political, but I’m like, that’s kind of a
point.
[Giacomo]
Hello.
[Dani]
So I don’t know, but I think, I think that’s awesome. I don’t think that for a long time, veganism
has kind of been an old white man’s club in terms of, uh, who are the, the voice, the voices, the
main voices like dr.
[Giacomo]
Angie said, Deggy and dr. Kim Williams, who framed things around individual patient
experiences and individual patient outcomes. And that’s what they’re talking about as opposed
to the clinical work, as opposed to the studies, as opposed to trying to speak to everyone.
And I kind of like that about them too, which is why their message is widely digested in a very
easily consumable way where people aren’t criticizing, which I liked a lot.
[Dani]
And I don’t say that it’s just been an old white man’s club because those are the only people
who are in the community, because that is not true. The more you dig, the more you realize
there is a lot of diversity in some of the experts in this community. They just maybe haven’t
risen to the same levels of notoriety.
And maybe we should be working on changing that.
[Giacomo]
Yeah. And I’ve seen some other sort of doctors and maybe, maybe we’ll, they’ll remain name
unmentioned, but basically there’s pseudoscience out there that even if they’re going to go
ahead and blow holes in their argument, like crazy.
[Dani]
Well, actually that kind of leads me to my last one. I’ll tear it. I’m all ears.
Okay. So this guy is rapidly becoming one of my favorites, Dr. Matthew Nagra. So he started
popping up in my feed, like doing reels and shorts.
I don’t know, a year ago, two years ago. What is time? I knew he was a doctor, but what I did
not know until I was doing the research for this podcast is he is actually a naturopathic doctor,
which normally would gain a little side eye from me, a little side eye from a naturopathic doctor,because every natural, I shouldn’t say every, almost every naturopathic doctor I’ve ever met,
um, recommends some stuff that I would consider to be pretty wild science.
[Giacomo]
Gotcha.
[Dani]
But his posts that he makes, they’re very bite-sized, very digestible to the average person,
clever, witty, entertaining, and evidence-based, legitimately evidence-based. So I have yet to
meet a naturopathic doctor who’s like literally reading up on the studies. So I think that that is
actually very cool.
So he’s in Vancouver, BC. He relentlessly bunks nutritional pseudoscience on the internet, like,
like relentlessly.
[Giacomo]
Okay.
[Dani]
And I said, there are some people that that’s, that’s what they do on the internet. They come for
people who put out BS and I respect it. I wish I had the guts.
I don’t, but he does. And it’s, it’s really good stuff that he puts out there. And, you know, he also
will call out people in the vegan community as well.
Like he does not support the purist, a hundred percent whole food, plant-based, no oil, no this,
no that approach. He calls people out and I’m not, not, and not in, not in an aggressive way, not
in like a, I’m going to insult you way because those that’s never going to get my, my eyeballs on
it. I have no interest in watching people insult each other, um, but just debunks it.
And some of the most popular like keto carnivore influencers out there, he is rebuttaling them,
but only rebutting, rebuttaling.
[Giacomo]
Why can’t you just coin a word? I don’t know.
[Dani]
Is it rebuttaling or is it rebutting? Why can’t I tell right now?
[Giacomo]
I haven’t heard the first one, but I’m going to start using it now anyway.[Dani]
Um, and the posts like they’ve picked up a lot of steam and he also works with patients
currently, which I think is important. So some of the things that I noticed, let’s hear it.
Cardiology, big thread.
You, you want to keep your heart healthy, eat a whole, eat, eat vegan, eat whole food, plant-
based, eat a moderately low fat diet. That seems to be a pretty common thread between all of
them. The old school versus new school doctors.
There’s a, there’s a, there’s a line. There’s a delineation here of the newer folks, the newer
doctors. They have a little bit more flexibility built into what it is they’re trying to talk to people
about.
And I think that’s partially because most of them are currently working with patients still. So
there’s that they, yeah, there’s just more nuance in the way they talk about things. And I don’t
think it’s a concession, you know, I don’t think it’s just that they don’t have the guts to say what
really works.
[Giacomo]
Right.
[Dani]
Like Esselstyn.
[Giacomo]
Got it.
[Dani]
I don’t think it’s that. I think it’s that a hardcore, 100% vegan message is only going to work.
Very small group.
[Giacomo]
Yeah.
[Dani]
Broader message. I think it’s still going to get the same number of people to a hundred percent
plant-based, honestly. But I think it’s going to help way more people become more plant-based.
[Giacomo]
And there may be victims along the way that had the best of intentions and weren’t able to,which is the real shame of it all.
[Dani]
And if you get more people to be more plant-based, even if they’re not vegan yet, that’s better
for their health. That’s better for animals. That’s better for the planet.
That’s just better all around. So I think that that’s really cool. And, you know, big takeaways
from this.
What are your big takeaways?
[Giacomo]
I hope to see a blend of old school and new school in the next 20 years when we’re able to cast
a wider net with doctors that are still doing this and are practicing less and preaching more
honestly. And I’m curious to see what that’s going to look like.
[Dani]
I would also say a good takeaway is, you know, listen to the doctors, listen to the lectures, read
their articles, watch their videos, remember who their audience is and ask yourself, is that me?
Because if it’s not you, don’t freak out when they say you can never have this or you can never
have that. Because if you’re not the person they’re talking to, it’s probably not true.
And if you are the person they’re talking to, look at who they suggest to go to as a medical
professional. I guarantee you they have a list of doctors that they refer out to. There might be
one near you.
It’s probably going to be much better for you to speak to somebody in person about your own
personal situation than to just take some advice from a video on the internet and be like, I have
to do this or else.
[Giacomo]
Make it practical. Make it yours. Well, thanks so much for tuning in to another episode of Vegan
Proteins, Muscles by Brussels Radio.
Follow us at Muscles by Brussels, at Vegan Proteins on all the socials. Hit the contact button on
veganproteins.com and submit an application. We would love to look into the possibility of
working with you.
We’ve got plenty of coaches here that can help and support you along the way and get you to
your goals. Once again, my name is Giacomo.
[Dani]And I’m Dani.
[Giacomo]
And we’ll talk to you soon.
[Dani]
Bye.
