Ep 278 – How to Talk to Non-Vegans Without Losing Your Mind

How do you talk about veganism with people who don’t share your perspective? Ben and Giacomo discuss the idea of calling non-vegans “pre-vegans,” the importance of meeting people where they are, and how their own approaches to vegan advocacy have evolved over time. They talk about the pressure to have all the answers, recognizing when someone is genuinely curious versus simply looking for an argument, and why sometimes the best approach is simply to listen.

The conversation also explores navigating veganism within families and relationships, introducing people to plant-based foods, and showing that veganism can fit into everyday life without isolation. Ben and Giacomo share their experiences with family members, social situations, difficult hypotheticals, and hostile social media comments, while discussing harm reduction, humor, and leading by example as alternative approaches to confrontation.

They wrap up by talking about the value of making incremental changes rather than approaching veganism with an all-or-nothing mindset, and why you don’t have to be an activist to live according to your own values.

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TRANSCRIPT

Ben (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. My name is Ben.

Giacomo (00:05)
And I’m Giacomo.

Ben (00:06)
And today we are going to be talking about navigating conversations with non-vegans. Now, I’ve heard the term used before, pre-vegans. Are you familiar with that term, Jock?

Giacomo (00:18)
no, I’m from the old school Ben. I’ve been vegan for twenty four years. I started getting active in the vegan community eighteen years ago. So the word pre vegan is not in my vocabulary. I haven’t I haven’t had my finger on on the pulse that much either as of late. But talk to me. What’s a pre

Ben (00:31)
Well,

Giacomo (00:32)
vegan? Mm-hmm.

Ben (00:33)
some people will just kind of use those terms interchangeably or they’ll replace non vegan with pre-vegan. And it’s kind of this idea that everyone is so the premise goes, everyone is vegan in their hearts, so to speak, but through a combination of cultural conditioning, tradition, the the world that we live in, the you know, the economic system that has things set up the way that they are today, that

we have gotten away from that. And so if people are not vegan right now, it’s really just the the start, or maybe they’re somewhere along that spectrum heading towards that eventually. It’s kind of this like hopeful, optimistic outlook that everyone will kind of come around to being vegan at some point. And so should we shouldn’t call these people, they’re not vegan, but it’s just they haven’t made that connection yet. So I’d like I’d like to know what you think about. Did you think everybody

Like this is kind of more of a philosophical question, but do you feel like everybody kind of is vegan in in their hearts, so to speak, and they just haven’t made that connection yet? Or do you think some people, you know, they’re just never gonna get there? And I think the whole idea is like making it more welcoming to people. So like if you’re calling someone a non-vegan, it’s almost like this deterministic thing of like they never will be, versus like pre-vegan, they just haven’t gotten there yet. So I have my I have my own like opinions and thoughts on that term, but I’d like to know.

What you think about that?

Giacomo (01:54)
I think that’s a good conversation starter because this can go in a lot of different directions. I can be a cynic here and say there is no chance in the world that within my lifetime or your lifetime that this world will be predominantly vegan. So that’s my cynical point of view. But in terms of vegans being judgy and in terms of vegans having being on their moral high horse or

having ethical and moral superiority over others that they’re around. It I like the idea of the word pre-vegan giving the v cause it gives the vegan community an opportunity to be more inclusive and less judgmental. It’s even it even parallels to how we’ve been coaching here in Vegan Proteins for the past, we’ll say three to five years. Cause we’ve been coaching for 18 plus years.

But we were only coaching vegans and we would have people come here and be like, just so you know, we’d have to even s we’d even say it, right? Because we wanted to be upfront about our we had to say our ethical and moral stance to others because we were working with them. We were like, just so you know, we’re vegan, but but the goal here is to be a hundred percent plant-based while you’re here. And we have a moral and ethical reason for being vegan, but we can coach you dietarily speaking. I mean, that’s obviously not the way I worded it, but

And then fast forward to the past three or five years, Ben, and we have a completely different stance. It’s like you can be plant curious and not even necessarily plant forward. That’s the terminology I’ve been using. I don’t know if there’s any overlap to how people talk about not being plant-based or interested in being 100% plant-based, regardless of their their moral and ethical beliefs, whether they want to be vegan or not, right? Because you could be dietarily vegan but not consider yourself vegan, right? Like whatever, wear leather.

I’m sorry, I feel like I’m just droning on here, like taking up too much of the airwave. So I’ll I’ll stop soon. But but I like the idea of us being completely nonjudgmental, the vegan community. And I like the idea of us being welcoming and open and curious to where other people are at, even if they’re not even necessarily plant curious. How do you get someone to be plant curious if you’re already coming from a completely different stance and you’re putting up walls with people?

So that’s where my head’s at. So I kinda like the word inter when you give me the context as far as like why why people are using it, the

term.

Ben (04:05)
Yeah, I think,

you know, the term non-vegan, it’s like it creates like an in-group, out-group kind of perspective or mentality. And I do think that trying to meet people where they’re at is important. And you kind of mentioned the distinction between being vegan, which by definition is more so about the the ethics side of things. And then people will also talk about the environmental impact and the potential health benefits of adopting a plant-based diet. And those things are

distinct and at the same time, I think it’s important to recognize that when somebody adopts a plant-based diet for whatever reason, whether that is environmental, ethical, or health, they are contributing positively to those other aspects. So most commonly I think you see it somebody adopts a maybe it’s a whole foods plant-based diet or some variation of that to improve their health markers and they see those benefits, they’re still

keeping animals off their plate, whether that’s their intention or not. And so I think sometimes we do ourselves a disservice by really being nitpicky with those people. And I think that there, there’s a line here because I think that there can be harms to people saying, well, you know, being vegan or a vegan diet didn’t work for me. And people kind of conflating this idea of, you know, veganism just being a diet, being a fad, being a trend for, you know, something for people to do as opposed to this

moral or or ethical stance. but I think kind of coming back to the main thread of the discussion, the way that we go about these conversations with people can impact the way that they perceive their ability to make changes, their ability to get closer to maybe somewhere that they would like to be. I know for myself that I didn’t really have an awareness and it wasn’t on my radar whatsoever the term vegan for many, many, many, many, many years. Like I maybe had some friends in

High school and college who mentioned it. And maybe I had some kind of preconceived notions about, you know, what a vegan is or who a vegan is. It just seemed like this kind of like weird subculture. I just didn’t really know much about it. And I didn’t start getting more exposure to it until I started getting more into health and fitness. And I heard people talking about different diets and that sort of thing. And just to give some context and some background for folks maybe who are new listeners who haven’t heard my story before.

I got into lifting weights when I was like halfway through college. And then a couple months later, I watched the Game Changers documentary, which kind of got the gears turning about plant-based diets. And then I watched a couple of those Netflix documentaries like What the Health and Forks Over Knives and Cow Spiracy. And then eventually what kind of actually spurred me to make a committed change was learning more about the ethical impacts, watching this speech called.

The greatest speech you’ll ever hear, or the best speech you’ll ever hear by Gary Yourofsky on YouTube. And I watched that and then I immediately went vegan. cold turkey, so to speak. Not a very I don’t even know where that expression comes from. Yeah,

Giacomo (06:53)
Cold Tofurky Ben.

Ben (06:55)
cold tofurky. That’s what I need to start what I need to start getting into. And yes, it was this like gradual per progression of planting seeds. And I can think back to other times in my life where I kind of had thought about this idea of of animal ethics and animal exploitation and

it for whatever reason didn’t resonate at that time. But I think the best that we can often do when we are talking to people who maybe don’t currently share our perspective or are interested, but maybe have reservations is to really try to talk to that person and understand where they’re coming from, what the history, you know, in their life from what we can glean, whether it’s someone we know well or somebody that we’re just meeting, what we can pick up about them, that we can try to create

that connection and that similarity so that they can see themselves in us and we can see ourselves in them and, you know, build that bridge and try to help them get closer to wherever they want to be. And hopefully that’s, you know, further along this this spectrum thoughts.

Giacomo (07:51)
Well, yeah, it all sounds nice in theory, and it’s a wonderful way to think about how to be inclusive, but then of course, reality smacks you in the face and you get hit with conversations and you don’t know how to react and you don’t know how to respond and you don’t know why you’re stuck in conversations. Something I think about from the earlier days when I was newer to veganism.

And I felt the way that I felt about it was that well for well two things here. I’ll touch upon two points. Point number one is I felt like I had the answer and I was so happy about the way I was living my life. So I started getting preachy and I started getting, getting a little show here. Okay, all right, all right. I well I mean for me it’s there’s this is it. My li I after this it’s skin, that’s my only other layer. But so sorry, but

I’ve quickly realized that people don’t want you to preach at them. And it doesn’t matter, especially when you have an idea that is rooted in morals and ethics. Even if what you’re doing is innocent and you’re just telling something, I quickly realized like because part of me wanted to influence other people, inspire other people, but I realized, no, this is not the way to do it. I had an I had an agenda, even if it wasn’t on purpose. The other point that I want to touch upon is the person who is not looking to be an activist, the person who is

not looking to engage, but just because of who you are and and how the world works and j well people are going to be curious and want to pick your brain and you’re gonna you and you you wind up finding yourself in uncomfortable conversations that you didn’t ask for. So in other words, just by being vegan, you’re op you’re subject to attack. You’re subject to scrutiny, you’re subject to criticism. And whether someone’s projecting something onto you or whether they’re straight up arguing your

your your opinions just for existing like that can be uncomfortable too, which is why I feel like it’s good to revisit this conversation. Because we’ve had this conversation before, but it’s it’s good to it’s good to revisit it, Ben, because

Even if you don’t want to be really good at having conversations with non vegans or you don’t have an agenda, like you’re gonna wind up being in them whether you like them or not. So you might as well find a way to be less uncomfortable.

Ben (09:52)
I think one of the trickiest parts for me, especially when I first went vegan, was feeling like I needed to have all the information or be in authority and speak on behalf of the entire movement because people will come at you with all these different questions. Of course, there are the very common ones like, well, where do you get your protein? And won’t you be malnourished? And these kind of more common concerns, but then

If you start getting into the ethics of it, then people will say, well, what about if you buy local or you know, humanely raised or cage-free and you start having to like educate yourself on all these common misconceptions and talking points? And I I feel like I felt a lot of pressure to have all the answers. And it’s like if I said that I didn’t know something, then I was failing or the other person was winning the argument or the conversation. And so I would often get really frustrated and just, you know, either.

Say something that I couldn’t actually back up or just exit out of those conversations, but walk away feeling kind of deflated from those. It’s it it was really tough. And I think a lot of people can relate to that, especially, you know, when these questions are coming from people that we interact with all the time. So let’s say we live, you know, we live with other people. We, you know, we live with our families. Maybe they aren’t, you know, they haven’t gotten there yet, or they don’t, you know, they aren’t vegan, they don’t share that same perspective. How do you

Communicate why this is important to you. I think for me, it was explaining what I had learned, why it resonated with me, and why I wanted to make these changes. for myself, I really looked at it from a rational perspective, you know, from an economic perspective. Like, okay, I don’t believe in this thing. I’m putting my money towards this thing, I’m contributing to the problem. So I want to do my best to not do that. So

that was kind of the with the way that I explained it to people. But that didn’t mean that I didn’t get questions about, you know, am I gonna, is this something that’s even gonna stick long term? That was something I got, you know, this is just a phase. This is something that you’re just gonna do for, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple months. And, you know, it’s been whatever, it’s cl close to six and a half years for me now. and of course, you know, those questions have sort of dwindled. But that doesn’t take away from the kind of initial.

difficulty of of those of those changes where there was a lot of questioning and just me feeling a lot of pressure to know everything. Do you can you relate to that at all? I feel like I hear that from people a lot.

Giacomo (12:12)
I’ve encountered less of the needing to know everything and more of the

How do I say people just like wanting to pick on the idea just because? Right. I’ve personally I’ve long since learned that it doesn’t matter how much you know, you’re not gonna you’re not going to change someone’s opinion that easily in one conversation. So I tend to not go down giant rabbit holes because it just leads to frustration.

and the other person just tries to poke holes in what you’re saying or and exits the conversation wondering how they could continue to poke holes in what you’re saying and then and and in that kind of conversation, they’re just gonna go continue to research again and again and again. And to me, I take a little bit more of a reactionary approach when and a little more of an emotionally charged approach when someone has a conversation with me about veganism and

I I try to gauge where they’re at. And if I feel like they have no interest in hearing what I have to say or listening and they just want to talk at me, then I just kinda let them until they fumble on their words and they’re and they’re like, give me an opening. Or they don’t, because otherwise it’s like a waste of my time and energy. And I know that’s kinda sad to say because the whole idea is to to impact others, but if someone’s not ready to and they’re just going to like drain your energy and then go off and argue after and belabor the point after the fact, like

they’re they’re they’re closed minded and they’re not they’re not here really here for conversation. They’re it’s it’s almost like they’re looking to pick on you a little bit. And I I just don’t have time for people like that in my life. But I find typically I find that with a person like that, when you just when you just go at them toe to toe and then you’re like, all right, what do you got for me now? Like you’re not bothering me. There’s really nothing to talk about here. And in the back of my mind I already know that I don’t have to prove by arguing. I don’t have to like

whatever, eventually they they are a little more open minded and they’re like, okay, well you obviously know something that you’re not sharing with me and you got me. I’m curious. Like what are we talking about here? Does that make sense? Because I mean I could easily I could easily sit here and talk for like five, ten minutes straight about all of the things I could do to prove why veganism is better for the environment, right? Or why veganism is better f is a more compassionate way to live for

the animals and it’s all about harm reduction as well in terms of not just the environment, not just it it well, sorry, that’s the the the last part. Diet. Like it’s obviously better for your health. Like I can I can make all these points, but I don’t like to get I don’t like to go down like crazy rabbit holes because I just feel like I lose people because they’re just not there yet. Do you know what mean? I don’t know. There’s no easy way to have this conversation, I guess, with somebody.

Ben (14:43)
I do know what you mean. I think you can probably gauge whether or not this is gonna be a conversation where the other person is open to learning and open to your perspective. Or like you said, they just kinda wanna talk at you and share their feelings. And I like the approach that you you said when it’s the latter, no matter what you say, they’re gonna find some other point to bring up that’s like you know, well I can’t do it for this reason or we shouldn’t do it for this reason. And even if you give them all the logic in the world, then

It’s not gonna, you know, make a difference. So I think like what you were saying, letting them kind of just get all that stuff out and just like nodding along and then waiting, because eventually they’re gonna run out of things to say and then they’re gonna be like, they came to you for a reason. So they’re probably gonna wanna hear what you have to say. So oftentimes, if you know, if that’s I I agree with that approach. Now, if I feel like they’re open to learning and they’re genuinely curious, that might be where I do maybe pass along some educational resources, like, hey, here’s a great content creator to learn more about the environmental impact.

or to get some awesome recipes or to learn you know watch this documentary about the ethics of it because if people are open to that then they can go explore that on their own time and there isn’t this like pressure one for me to know everything because I can just you know pass that pass that off but also it’s not this you know high stakes conversation where you know it’s they have to you know make a decision or kind of grasp what I’m saying right then and there they can kind of do it on their own time really sit with these concepts think about them

I think the most common conversation that I probably have, and this kind of gets into the topic of, you know, how do we have these kind of advocacy conversations? I mean, that’s what vegan strong is all about, right? It’s about going around and having these conversations with people who are in fitness, because ultimately, and you know, Robert talked about this in his in his book. you know, diet is the thing that’s gonna have the most impact. Of course, we could focus on, you know, clothing and all these other aspects of animal exploitation, but

You know, everybody eats, everybody eats multiple times a day. Those are the food decisions that are going to again impact the the net aggregate animal you know, suffering. So if we focus really on nutrition, diet with people, and you know, us being athletes, us being bodybuilders, that that is a that’s a a way that we can break through to people, especially people who consume lots of meat, lots of animal products, because that is the culture.

so if we can have these conversations, if we can help educate people on, hey, I’m not saying you have to do it this way, but there are alternatives if you want to. I think coming at it from that perspective, as opposed to like, I’m telling you what to do, here are some other alternatives. I think even that subtle shift can be huge for people. Like I’ve had folks come up to the gym, and you know, they see me wearing a vegan, you know, shirt or something like that, and they’ll ask me about that. And they’ll, you know, ask me, where do you get your protein? Or isn’t it hard to do XYZ thing? and I try not to like.

push back or refute their points and be like, what are you talking about? It’s easy, or you know, something like that. But actually just be like, okay, you’re curious about this. Like, here’s what I do. And they might ask a question. And to me, maybe the question is very simple or straightforward or like, I can’t believe you’re asking that. But I, you know, I’m never going to come across that way as like dismissive or like rude. I’m going to, you know, try to again come into a place of like, you’re curious about this. Let me try to be as warm and invo you know inviting and welcoming as I can because

Again, whether we like it or not, I think that there is this pressure for us to almost represent what a vegan means because most people don’t know that many of them in their lives. And so even though sometimes I don’t love that, I don’t love the fact that I feel like I always have to, you know, be on my best behavior and come across a certain way, I do think it it does it has helped me to improve my communication skills and try to find ways to like, again, you know.

Find someone shake someone’s hand, you know, bridge that bridge that gap.

Giacomo (18:23)
Yeah, totally. I think family can be particularly difficult. To me it sounded like when you have conversations in a family dynamic that it’s they’re generally supportive ones and non judgmental ones. Am I was I reading you right?

Ben (18:34)
That I

mean, that would be a good conversation. Do we can just talk about like our own experiences with with our families? I think a lot of this conversation honestly is more so just speaking to the experience of what it is like to be a vegan in a non-vegan world. And I think people get value out of hearing that, of feeling like, you know, these people that they they understand they resonate with me. It’s not just a me thing. so I think it would be helpful for us to maybe share some of those experiences. So my family, when I first went vegan.

My parents have always been supportive and facilitative of follow your own path. We’ll support you however we can. so when I made this change, it was an interesting time. So it was right before all the COVID lockdowns. And so all of my family was kind of back in a in our home years later, after a lot of us had grown up, you know, I was in college, my brother was in college, my sister was in high school. And

I’ve always liked cooking. My brothers always like cooking. So I kind of once I made this change, I took it upon myself to start cooking for my family for dinners and making I made a lot of like instant pot recipes, really simple stuff, but it just worked and it was easy. And I tried to make it tasty. my sister’s maybe a little bit pickier, but she had actually been vegetarian since she was 10. my family’s usually happy to to to eat whatever. So I’m I’m grateful that they were open-minded that they didn’t like.

question me too much. They had questions about why I was doing things, but it wasn’t like, no, you can’t do this or you shouldn’t do this. and I was definitely more of that angry vegan at first in terms of being on my soap soapbox and getting into arguments about eggs and honey and all of this, you know, these little kind of, you know, different, different talking points. But over time, I think they started to understand you know, why I was making these changes and try to understand my perspectives more.

And I trust tried to instead take the approach over time of just offering up little swaps that they could make. So at first it was like, hey, have you tried oat milk or almond milk or soy milk instead of the the half and half or the skim milk in your coffee? That was like the first one that I remember changing. Then it was like they I think maybe but even before this, they had kind of stopped eating red meat. I don’t know if that was for health or for ethical reasons or what that was really about.

But over time it was slowly like, okay, there’s this dairy alternative, there’s this cheese alternative, there’s this meat alter alternative. Soon after that, like I were pretty sure we stopped buying meat pretty much altogether, and that kind of switched over to the meat substitutes. And then it was like these little you know, we would try a different vegan product and they wouldn’t really like it. And then I would be like, man. And then I would maybe try a different one. So it was like very slow and gradual. And now I would say, you know, my my siblings and my parents are they’re all.

you know, vegetarian slash majority plant based or plant forward. So that makes it really easy when we’re going out to eat or I’m making food at home for them to enjoy those things. And I feel like it’s been a slow, gradual process, but I have, I feel been fortunate to have people who are at least open minded in my family to trying some things, trying new things, not being tied to any particular way of of eating or living, that

That sort of aspect of their lifestyle. So I would say I’ve been more fortunate in in the response. Of course, you hear about stories of people, it’s like, my whole family’s vegan now. Like, okay, obviously that would be cool, but like that’s not realistic for the vast, vast majority of people. So I think getting to the point where at the very least the people around you understand why it is that you’re making the choices that you make and they are, to a certain extent, accepting of that and don’t.

give you grief all the time. I think that should be maybe the goal. And anything past that is kind of a bonus. And if you get to the point where it’s never the case, like you’re always getting questioned, you’re always getting judged, you’re always getting poked fun at by your family or by those around you, that seem that seems really hard. Like that’s that’s that’s tricky.

Giacomo (22:26)
Trying to think about different scenarios when it comes to our clients rather than just

Frame this whole conversation from our personal stories with our families, right? And a couple different ideas are coming to mind when someone is vegan but their partner is not. And they’re the ones that do do the cooking or they’re the ones that don’t do the cooking, that can become tricky. And what I typically wind up seeing is if you if they’re the ones doing the cooking, they

They wind up

inspi they wind up getting the other person to make some changes because there’s some compromise there. Right? So there’s there is something there. But then there’s also the frustration of like having separate meals and that’s a little bit sad and that can be a little frustrating. then there’s the scenario of if you have children. And children are picky eaters by nature. They’re still trying to figure out their palate and how they like to eat and what they like to eat and when they like to eat and they’re still

trying to figure it all out for their for themselves, but they’re relying on you to cook. And obviously you’re gonna have meals together like a family, typically, right? So there’s the there’s the stress of preparing food for them, but also wanting them to trying to encourage them to make changes, but also like not putting them in a position where you’re deciding for them what they want, what they should do. Right. So that’s a tricky scenario to navigate. Yeah. Those are two that come to mind for me. And

I find that as long as the relationships, the familiar relationships are healthy, that it typically it’s typically okay. But sometimes there’s resistance depending on the person or depending on like the in other words, the person who’s vegan is frustrated because they want their family to be healthier. And they could only they could only hold on to that so much. They’re eventually they’re gonna like give their family some put try to push their family in that direction. And that can be f that can be difficult.

And then there’s the other person who’s just wants because food is very a very personal thing and they and they want they want they want it their way. They don’t want they don’t want to have to be subjected to eating a plant based meal because you know what I mean, so they kinda like tease and poke at their partner a little bit. Or they or or they’re judgmental about what how you’re feeding the family and being like, well, you can be plant-based, but don’t don’t put that on

are children. So there’s a lot of interesting interpersonal dynamics when it comes to family life and relationships, even when there are not children, just between partners. you have any thoughts on any of that?

Ben (24:42)
I

do. I think that this idea of like exposure is really important. So the example that you brought up of maybe you’re going on this journey yourself, and maybe you’re currently not somebody who does a lot of the cooking. Or maybe you are. In either of those cases, I think the more that you can provide opportunities for those around you to try plant-based food that is delicious, tastes good, it’s healthy.

The more opportunities there are for somebody to find something that they like. Maybe the first five things that you give somebody to try, they don’t like, but the sixth thing that they try, you know what? Actually, that isn’t bad. You know, I could eat that. Okay, you know, we’ve got something there. We can work off of that. And it can take time to find those things. But if you are putting in the time and effort to try to expose again, whether it’s your children, whether it’s your family members, your friends.

Even going out to eat at a vegan restaurant, that could be a great way to do it because then the pressure isn’t on you to prepare this delicious food, but you can still get that again, that exposure to, this is what vegan food can taste like. Cause I think people just have this perception of what plant-based food is or what vegan food is. I know I did for sure. And now I realize, okay, I can actually enjoy all the dishes that I used to enjoy, just the vegan versions of them. And that could be eye-opening for people. Like, okay, we’re not just eating salads, when we go out to eat and that isn’t what we’re gonna be eating at home.

And

so I think that that’s an important aspect of people just realizing that vegans are just regular people like like anyone else. They’ve just decided to make this this lifestyle change for this reason. And I think that the more that we can try to do that. So I think it’s I actually think it’s important when you get invited out.

By friends or other people who are not vegan. Of course, you can try to push for a place that has some options for inclusivity for yourself and hopefully they’re open to that. But going to those settings, and even if it isn’t ideal, finding some sort of vegan option on the menu, hey, you might have to run into scenarios where you gotta talk to the waiter and make a make a request or make an accommodation, and that can be uncomfortable. But also at the same time, I think it’s important for

us to show up and and you know in these scenarios and be like, hey, I’m here, I’m a vegan, I’m participating in this, even if there isn’t like an explicit vegan option on the menu for me, I can still come, I can still participate, and I can still, you know, be a part of this thing, whatever it is, this this cultural phenomenon. I think that’s that’s important because I don’t think the solution is to isolate ourselves and go live on a vegan commune and be all, you know, hippy dippy together. Like

As fun as that sounds, and I know Dani has talked about that many times, and I’m like, I vibe with the ethos of that. I think it’s important for us to be for vegans to be in all sorts of settings, in all sorts of occupations, and for people to see, there’s somebody like me, exactly like me. The only difference is that they’re vegan. And hey, maybe then that could be something that that I do too.

Giacomo (27:34)
Yeah. The easiest thing, the evidence, the science shows that the easiest way to reach someone is through diet. Because if you can show them that they can be healthier by consuming a plant-based diet, get their cholesterol down, you know, lower their risk of cardiovascular cardiovascular disease, and of course not say that vegan is the cure all tonic for everything. You don’t want to be one of those people.

then you can you can reach people that way, typically. But it is interesting when it comes to the other sides of the conversation when it comes to animal rights, animal at animal ethics, all that stuff. that’s a lot trickier. And the environment’s a little bit is is a safer way to but not everyone really cares. Right? People can blow all kinds of holes. okay, we live on a star. The star’s gonna fade eventually, so it fades a little faster, whatever. And they don’t really think about

how they’re gonna leave a footprint here for for the next generation or for their species or just to live in a world where quality of life is better because we like we’re taking care of the earth. People people tend to but at least it’s it’s a conversation that doesn’t rub people the wrong way. When when it comes to when it comes to speaking up for the animals and making sense of the fact that like we are not the only sentient beings here.

That’s when people get personal about it ’cause like, well, what do you mean I don’t have feelings and I wanna kill something else and because they because it has feelings and it’s on my plate and had to die for like people get very defensive about that. I think that’s the hardest the hardest conversation to broach. So I typically steer clear of it unless someone is engaging me personally.

Ben (29:05)
Yeah,

I’m kind of the same way. It was what I was talking about earlier. When you get somebody who is interested in a plant-based diet or a vegan diet for health reasons, or maybe they’re interested in it for gym performance or whatever it is. If I can get somebody to swap their beef burger for an impossible burger every single Monday, hey, that’s getting them, that’s getting them further along that spectrum. And that’s often the conversations that I have. Somebody will come up to me and say,

You know what, I’m not vegan, but I’m vegetarian, or I do meatless Mondays, or I try not to do this, or I try not to do that. It’s almost like they’re they’re they’re kind of confessing their their sins to you, but saying, I’m trying, I’m trying. so you know, I I don’t I I don’t look at that and say, Well, have you thought about the fact that you’re killing an animal every other single time that you eat? No. because that is going to be confronting for them. And they probably already have some awareness of that in their head, which is maybe why they’re trying to make some change. Maybe not, maybe it’s just purely.

health. even that even still, you’re you’re they’re still having an impact whether they realize it or not. So sometimes I’ll try to weave that in a little bit, but I try to do it in a way that is, like you were saying, non-confrontational. like saying, if I can choose to to live this way more compassionately for myself and and for the planet and for the animals, something like that. in in a way that is not directed towards them or they wouldn’t take it as an affront.

But it’s hard because then you feel like you’re having to tiptoe around people and and their feelings and you don’t always want to to do that. I try to weave in those concepts where I can without it coming across as a personal attack. But I think it’s a little bit of a skill and it’s something that takes time to figure out. it’s different depending on each person that you’re talking to. Like if someone comes in guns ablazing, it’s probably not the the route to go down.

Giacomo (30:47)
Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t make it any more comfortable for you when you have your own personal feelings and you’re sitting down with a family of hunters, for example, and they’re giving you like the you’re a vegan on an island kind of scenario. Do you eat meat to survive? And I’m kinda like, This is a ginormous hypothetical and I don’t know that I wanna be later the p gun to your head. Would you eat meat like why are we going there? Like that conversation is

Part of the conversation is relevant, but maybe these conversations do happen. And I guess one way we could look at it, or one way I Ben, is that if someone’s not there yet, they’re likely to have those kinds of conversations with you where they’re where they’re unintentionally being defensive. Do you know what I mean? Because it’s just that’s their set of beliefs. Right? So then rather than taking it as an attack, you just maybe

think about the I fact that like that’s that’s where they’re at. So obviously they’re gonna come up with analogies like that.

Ben (31:37)
yeah, I think the the tricky part about the hypotheticals is it’s kind of just trying to be this gotcha moment where people want to be right and people want to feel validated and they maybe don’t want to think about some of these things. And I think I remembered it, what I was gonna say. I think humor can be a good way to actually diffuse.

These conversations, especially when people try to pick on you, because you and you can kind of actually you can make like almost you can depending on the person, you can probably put little jabs in there that are gonna get them to think critically if you’re really close with them, like if it and they’re they’re giving you some sort of crap. Like there’s do you know who Preacher Lawson is?

Giacomo (32:17)
No.

Ben (32:17)
He’s a vegan comedian, and so like he’ll

He’s a commun people a lot of people don’t know he’s vegan. I think he was on America’s Got Talent and then he got really popular and he’s vegan. So he’ll sometimes weave like vegan jokes into there. And I think that’s really clever because it like it diffuses people’s emotions towards them, but still gets them to like think kind of critically about it. And I think that’s kind of going back to this idea of the fact that there’s so many different means of advocacy or activism or or ways for people to see that, anyone can can be vegan.

and these debates, they definitely intensify in certain spaces. I know we had talked about maybe touching on social media and how that can kind of contribute to things, especially in the diet space, because veganism on social media I think is often conflated with like being a diet or being a fat or being a trend, as we talked about. but even when it comes to the animal ethics, of course, you’ll get the people in the comments being like, I’m gonna eat an extra steak tonight for you vegans, that sort of thing.

So

I think that the anonymity doesn’t help because people can say really cruel, mean things, especially if they perceive the other group to be this, this sensitive, oftentimes there’s this conflation of meat and masculinity. So this, feminine group, like I’m the alpha male, I’m gonna, you know, talk down, tack talk down to you sort of thing. And I think that creates more of this divide, whether whether or not

These conversations would actually be happening in person if we were face to face is I think a different question. But I I don’t think that this has helped the the the dialect or the discourse, so to speak, because it just ends up polarizing people. And it’s harder to find that common ground, like we’ve been talking about, finding the shared, where can I meet this person where we where we c are connecting here? It’s harder to do.

Giacomo (34:03)
Yeah.

I typically when s when the comments start going off like that, I typically just bow out gracefully and slowly because they’re just devolving. But I’ve seen others take a completely assertive and aggressive stance and like respond to every single one of them, right? Just

point blank, essentially, without antagonizing the other person, but sometimes even antagonizing the other person. But I tend to be a little more of a sensitive soul about these things. And so it it would be hard for me to engage. I think it would bother me quite a bit. But it didn’t it doesn’t mean that you it doesn’t mean that you can’t make your voice heard in

threads like that or whatnot, but I I could pr fr from my perspective, I could understand why someone would like not want to look at stuff like that when when people are just getting har when when people are getting angry, ha saying harmful, hurtful things just for the sake of it, without realizing they’re hurting you ’cause you’re like, whatever, I eat neat, like why is this such a big deal to you? Right? Maybe but it’s yeah.

I I don’t I don’t really know how to respond to stuff like that in all honesty. But I admire people who

Ben (35:03)
N yeah.

Giacomo (35:04)
do.

Ben (35:04)
Same. Yeah. When Dani made that like viral reel with the, the arm shaking thing and then I made one

Giacomo (35:10)
Yeah.

Ben (35:10)
too. And that those things kind of popped off and we were getting like tons of comments coming in about, hate comments. I think it’s just, the more exposure you get, the more that you’re going to get that sort of thing. And

Giacomo (35:20)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (35:20)
I don’t think people would be saying these things in real life to your face. I think it’s just because of that, that wall. Maybe, maybe some people. but I’m kinda

Giacomo (35:26)
Sometimes

Ben (35:27)
like you. I think that I’ve

I’ve

done it a few times where I try to engage with somebody in the comment section and it just takes up my mental space. It takes up my mental bandwidth. I get angry.

Giacomo (35:35)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (35:36)
I get upset. I get frustrated. So if that’s you, I would say just try not to engage in those conversations. Like sometimes I’ll see a piece of content where I’m like, my God, this is like honestly, it’s pissing me off. Or like I’ll read a comment thread where people are attacking some like vegan creator or whatever. And I want to jump in there and be like, you don’t even know how wrong you are. But

I know for my own mental health, like getting sucked into those conversations and fighting with people all day over the internet is just not good. And like I try to focus on where I can have a positive impact versus just trying to debate one person. And for me, that is using, my coaching, using my journey as an athlete and sharing that with people. I have found that to be the best way to initiate those conversations in a way that is productive because people will come to me, they they

They, if they perceive me as somebody that they would like to be, at least at least in certain aspects, with a role model or somebody that they they want to emulate in some way, they’re going to come at it from a different perspective as opposed to I’m telling you why you’re wrong and why you shouldn’t do. It’s just me sharing what I’m doing and showing that I’m happy and I’m healthy and I’m living my best life. People want that. that’s attractive to people. And so the they’ll come at it from a perspective of tell me more about that. I want to be like that versus.

this person seems really miserable and angry and I don’t want to be like that, so I’m not going to associate with that

Giacomo (36:54)
And the other thing I like to do is I come at it from the mindset of it’s harm reduction, right? I think you mentioned that earlier in our conversation, because it softens the lines because people think that might think that you like you’re coming from this very hard stance because you’ve made a decision. This is the way you are, so they are immediately

judging themselves, right? And projecting onto you whatever they’re projecting onto projecting onto the conversation, whatever they’re projecting onto the conversation because they’re judging themselves, so they’re feeling judged just because you are who you are, because you’re vegan. And that’s where it becomes complicated. So I like

Just like you, I like to be the example and I also like to soften the lines in my mind when I’m when I’m in these kinds of conversations and just think about the fact that it is harm reduction, right? It’s it’s okay it’s okay to to meet someone where they’re at, to not look to change them, to not even necessarily try to plant seeds, but maybe, but maybe over time, just through association, having known you in some way, they’ll take some pause.

And look up something or think about something or whatever. And maybe they’ll make some more changes. And from my perspective, as an actual activist who goes out and actively looks for these conversations all the time, Ben, just like you, right? If I if someone is having a day a week where they’re where it’s a meatless dinner, if someone has decided to be

I won’t use the word vegetarian because that means they stopped eating meat, but like they’ve pretty much they’ve done the whole like it’s more than just red meat. I’m not eating meat. For example, then from my perspective, I I I have influenced the world in a positive way. And that’s cool, right? As opposed to this all or none kind of mentality, this black or white thinking. It’s if if someone isn’t plant-based and or working towards it, if someone isn’t eventually plant-based and vegan or working towards it.

then I then I haven’t done my job as a vegan activist, for example. And that’s coming yeah, that’s and if you’re not a an I mean you and first of all, you don’t have to be you don’t have to be vegan and be an activist. Like I understand I I feel like it needs to be said. Do you know what I mean? Like you can just want to be vegan because that’s what you believe in and that’s the footprint that you want to leave. And that’s it’s directly in line with your morals and ethics. You don’t have to be you don’t have to

I mean, many vegans want to be the example for others, but some just want to live their lives. And that’s perfectly fine too. Like you don’t owe you don’t owe the vegan community anything. You know what I mean? Just by what you’re doing and the choices that you’re making, you’re you’re leaving this world a better place. And that’s and that’s enough. Like you are enough as you are.

Ben (39:28)
I

love that. I honest I honestly don’t think that we could like end the episode on a better note than that. so was there anything else that you wanted to to add before we close out the conversation?

Giacomo (39:37)
What’s your next vegan meal, Ben?

Ben (39:38)
My next vegan meal, I’m probably gonna have some some seitan and some vegetables after this. That’s that’s gonna

Giacomo (39:44)
Yeah.

Ben (39:44)
be my that’s gonna be my my meal. Yeah, what about you?

Giacomo (39:48)
Okay. I’ve been really trying to eat more Whole Foods as of late and ’cause I’ve been leaning on the convenience stuff. So I’ve been sticking to a grain, a veggie, and some sort of plant-based meat on my dish for lunch. And we got some seitan and some tofu in the fridge. We also have some tofu scramble that Dani made up in the fridge as well. This might be a teaser to a video that she’s made that she hasn’t put out there yet. So you you may be surprised if you’re hearing this and all of a sudden you’re like, wait a minute.

That’s an ex YouTube recipe. I just it wow, okay, because yeah, like we we have extras from whatever Dani is cooking up for YouTube. And then we have stuff that she’s pre-made as well. Like we have these. Am I making you hungry? I’m sorry. It’s such a punishing thing

Ben (40:31)
A little bit, but that’s good. I’m gonna eat soon. no, you don’t have to apologize. I’d like I’d love

Giacomo (40:35)
when someone’s on prep and you immediately you start, of course, you start talking about food. I’m sorry.

Ben (40:40)
No, I

I love it actually. I wanna hear it. Let’s go.

Giacomo (40:42)
She made some sort of English muffin thing, like a McMuffin kind of thing with like a sheet of seitan some like of her own homemade version of like a just egg, and then muffin, we froze them up. And I just took a look at it and I’m like, it’s about three hundred calories and twenty grams of protein. She looked at she goes, Yeah, you’re right. So what you know, you get to a certain point where you don’t really have to think about these things anymore. And you just have to like honor how much you want to be eating and make sure it’s in line with your goals and and health and whatnot.

So that’s a long winded w long winded way of saying I don’t quite know what I’m gonna eat right now, but it’s probably gonna be some like spinach or salad from our CSA share, some brown rice that we have that’s frozen, and like I don’t know, beyond chicken strips that I have that are frozen, but probably the fresh stuff, probably some like seitan or or like tofu or whatever that’s pre seasoned. So that’ll be my lunch buddy. Yeah.

Ben (41:29)
Yeah,

we’ve got a couple weeks left on our CSA. I just picked ours up yesterday, so I did a bunch of meal prep getting everything done. That the stuff that takes longer, like the stuff that I can cook in the pan in two seconds, I won’t do but like like squash that I need to roast and that sort of thing on meal prep. So I’m probably gonna have some of that.

Giacomo (41:45)
Mm. Mm.

This is the perfect time of the year for squash. We got a a delicata squash that I haven’t made up yet. I’ve been a little too lazy just relying on Dani’s freezer meals and extra stuff from her YouTube because they’re so good. I mean, if you have if you’re watching this and you haven’t watched our other channel where we have lots of recipes up, like you gotta you gotta get on there. There’s so many wonderful recipes that go really well with others. If the one thing that my dad

didn’t scoff at were these barbecue seitan ribs. He would be the kind of person that would look at a chocolate bar, read the ingredients and see there was no milk in it, and be like, just just to just to piss you off. He’d be like, That’s vegan, it probably tastes like crap I don’t want. I’m like, It’s dark chocolate. It’s supposed to not have milk in it. But he liked those he did like those vegan ribs. We have those recipes and many others up. So you never know, keep experimenting and you and you’d be surprised you might find your your family, your friends

Enjoy what you make more than you realize.

Ben (42:40)
Absolutely. Well, thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. I’ve been Ben. This is Giacomo. And if you have any questions for us, please feel free to shoot an email over to coach at veganproteins.com or drop them down in the comments below. Ratings and reviews always help if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Obviously on YouTube, liking and commenting is really helpful. So if you’ve made it this far in the video, let us know.

maybe something that has been helpful for you in navigating those conversations with folks who aren’t vegan or maybe some struggles that you’re having and we can get in there and and see if we can help out in any way. And if you’re looking for any sort of one on one coaching, that’s what we do here at Vegan Proteins, again you can send us a email at coach at veganproteins.com or you can fill out an application on our website. And without anything else really left to be said, thank you for tuning in to another episode and we’ll catch you in the next one.

Giacomo (43:33)
See ya, we’ll save a small talk for the next one, Ben. I know you’re I know you’re wondering. Did you even give any pushbacks? See ya everyone.

Ben (43:35)
We will. I jumped right into the topic. I know. Cardinal sin. We’ll save it for next time. Bye guys.