Ep 251 – Scrawny Teen to Vegan Bodybuilder: Coach Sawyer’s Story

In this episode, Ben sits down with Coach Sawyer to kick off a new series highlighting the personal stories behind the Vegan Proteins coaching team. Sawyer shares his evolution from a sports-loving kid with performance anxiety to a dedicated lifter navigating body image struggles, extreme bulking phases, and ultimately finding balance in his fitness journey.

They dive into the mental and emotional side of bodybuilding, including chasing validation, overcoming insecurity, and learning to let go of extremes in pursuit of a more sustainable physique. Sawyer also opens up about his transition to veganism, how it reshaped his values and worldview, and the unexpected health and emotional benefits he’s experienced over the past decade.

This episode is a deep, honest look at what it really takes to build not just muscle—but a healthier relationship with fitness, identity, and long-term goals.

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TRANSCRIPT

Ben (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome back for another episode of Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. name is Ben.

Sawyer (00:05)
and I’m Coach Sawyer.

Ben (00:06)
and thank you for listening to another episode. So today we are going to be starting a little bit of a new series where we are going to be conducting some interviews one-on-one with each of the coaches so that you can get to know a little bit more about each of our personal stories when it comes to our health, our fitness, nutrition, how we got into kind of the realm of veganism, adopting a plant-based diet. And so I wanted to start

by just first of all, going over someone’s life story, just starting from when they were young, kind of what’s their relationship with exercise, with nutrition, what got them into coaching. So those are kind of some of the topics that we’re going to get into today. You may have kind of heard a little bit, little bits and pieces from people’s stories just as we’ve gone through the regular podcast episodes and different topics, because oftentimes we do like to tie in our personal experience because it makes us.

more relatable to the audience. It helps us to relate to our clients better. So we wanted to share a little bit more intentionally about what that process has looked like for each of us because it is a process and it continues to be. This is something that’s a lifelong journey for all of us. We’re all still learning and we all still have things that we can learn from others as well. So I wanted to open up the floor to you, Sawyer, but I’d first just like to get a little update because it has been a little while since we kind of

caught up on a more personal note, obviously, we have kind of that coaching relationship now and we’ve been continuing to develop that. But I’d love to hear how you’re enjoying living abroad and what that experience has been like now that you’ve been there for like a month now, close to?

Sawyer (01:36)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Been about a month? Yeah, a little over a month actually now. Yeah, it’s been really cool. You know, it’s a cloudy day today, so it’s unusual. It’s been really nice weather most of the time. But I actually kind of appreciate the change. I think it’s kind of cool to have variety in there a little bit. So that’s cool. And then we also have a friend visiting us who’s staying with us for open-ended amount of time.

And so that’s been cool. He just got in yesterday and looking forward to like showing him around some of the places we’ve seen and checking out new spots.

⁓ he’s vegan and into fitness as well. So it’s going to be a lot of overlap between what we like to do. so yeah, man, it’s been, it’s been cool. And, you know, slowly, but surely meeting people, finding new spots that I like around the city. It’s been really cool. It’s, it’s different when you’re not here for vacation and you’re trying to like live here long-term, obviously you’re not trying to squeeze in as much stuff as you can. And I think when I first got here, I was like, my God, I have so much to experience. And I feel like I haven’t done anything yet.

And like the more stuff I do try and the more places I check out the more I’m like, okay, this is pretty cool. I could see myself coming back here, you know, and you just don’t feel as stressed about like getting it all in at once, you know? So that’s been cool.

Ben (02:53)
Out

of curiosity, what’s kind of been the communication? Like are people pretty English speaking friendly? Do you know Spanish? what’s kind of been with that? Is that the main language? I’m assuming that’s the main language that’s spoken, but I know that there’s also kind of like other languages that are spoken in small pockets of Spain. So.

Sawyer (03:05)
Thank

Yeah, there’s Casalán. we haven’t really, I don’t really even know how to identify or like, I mean, that’s been on some menus and stuff, but I haven’t really talked, you know, spoken with anybody or tried to learn that. It’s mostly been Spanish.

And then we have met some ex-pats who speak English. that’s been, most of the people we’ve met has been English speaking, but when I’m out and about and interacting with people in the city, it’s mostly Spanish. So getting by on like conversational phrases and kind of stumble like through conversations, but probably getting better and not even realizing it, which is cool. So yeah, it’s just, it’s slow. It’s just nothing that it’s like,

you get here and you’re just like in the middle of a giant city and you’re trying to figure out your bearings and like yeah you just you’re gonna start learning stuff by by just being here and so that’s kind what it feels like it feels like it’s kind of settling in and I’m learning things slowly but surely and I think if we decide to be here long term it’ll I’ll probably join like a language school just to be like let’s just fast-track this you know because I do want to get fluent in Spanish at some point if we’re gonna be here

Ben (04:15)
Yeah, that makes sense. There’s a certain amount of immersion that takes place, but also there isn’t necessarily a solution or something that you can implement that’s the same as learning the language kind of formally in addition to that, because you’ll pick stuff up from conversation that you might not pick up from kind of a formal education and vice versa. So I think it makes sense to marry the two. How are you feeling about…

Sawyer (04:19)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Ben (04:37)
the idea of staying there long term right now. I know that’s kind of early on and how long were you planning to stay initially? Are you going to kind of go to a couple different places and then decide if you want to make any of these places your semi permanent home?

Sawyer (04:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, first of all, the mission is like to find like a hub. Like I don’t want to stop traveling anytime soon. It’s more to just find a new spot that we could call our own, that we could invest in and buy and go to whenever we feel like we need to recharge. And you’re right. It is still very early on and we’ve had days where we’re like, I don’t think so. And days where we’re like, yeah, maybe. So it’s kind of, it’s still up in the air. There’s just, it’s way too early to tell.

And so we’re really going to just spend our traveler visa time here in Spain and maybe travel around a little bit. And then once that three months is up, we’re going to go to a different country, try that out, maybe come back to Spain, try a different city maybe. So it’s, you know, this year is really about exploration. It’s

And then at the end of the year, we’re hoping to have picked a place and been like, you know what? And it could be anywhere in the world too, past experience included, but this year is about Europe. it’s a very slow and deliberate process, but ⁓ we are getting to the point where we’re like, all right, we really do want to choose soon. So yeah, hopefully I’ll have some exciting updates towards the end of the year about that. But right now it’s just about trying to experience a place and really just

all the different aspects of living here in and seeing if this feels like it could be a new like hub. You know, I won’t say home because I just think, I don’t know, I almost think the world is my home at this point because I’ve been traveling so much and I like that. But having a place to just recharge our batteries and that feels like a comfortable kind of familiar spot that, you know, suits our needs and like our values and things like that would be great.

Ben (06:19)
It’s exciting. I’m looking forward to hearing kind of what you come up with at the end of the year, your conclusions and what’s been kind of the most exciting and rewarding. I like that idea of the world is kind of your home and you can kind of choose what home means to you. But I do think that there is something to having that base, like you said, to kind of come back to that feels a little more settled. So it’s not always kind of this coming and going all the time.

Sawyer (06:23)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right, and I think a big part of us realizes that a lot of it has to do with the people that are there.

like creating real relationships, I think needs to be a focus like for this year too. Like if we were to really create relationships that felt just, just very fulfilling, I think we could not only see ourselves being in a place long-term, but also kind of get a feel for what the day-to-day would be like. Whereas if most of the people I’m interacting with and wanting to hang out with and stuff are like over the sea, I think it would be a little bit hard to call that place home.

no matter how much I like it. So there’s a little bit of that going on too and just seeing like, okay, who are the people we meet over the course of this year and where are they at? then…

You know, I think we’re always gonna have friends all over the place. So I think the other thing is like a place where we can afford to have some space and just host people. So like if you and Dana want to come over and you got a couple of weeks and we got a room, you know what I mean? Like I want, I want it to make it accessible to people. And all they got to worry about is getting there. And then it’s like, you got a place to stay with us, you know? There’s too many cool people that we’ve met at this point to like,

We need to have space for them to feel like welcome, you know, and also living in the van for six years. That’s been a major limitation. So, you know, I’m excited about that prospect, too.

Ben (07:53)
I love that man. What do say we get into the topic for today, which is talking about yourself? Okay, cool. So I would love to know what has your relationship with exercise and movement been like from an early age? Were you into sports? Did you kind of get into working out later? When did the lifting weights component kind of come into it? When did you decide that, you know what, I want to actually train more for aesthetics versus being strong because there’s all sorts of different goals that you can kind of pursue.

Sawyer (07:56)
Let’s do it, man.

Ben (08:21)
through that route of lifting weights. I’d love to just open up the floor to you and see what you have to say about that.

Sawyer (08:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, so.

I, my dad growing up really enjoyed lifting and was doing, you know, had been doing it for, since his twenties or something, was very consistent with it. And then, you know, ended up building like a home gym, pretty, pretty cool home gym. and so I was able to, you know, from a very young age, grew up around the equipment and see the benefits of it. And you know, how, how good of a social opportunity it could be and like how just, it didn’t need to be like a scary thing. I think.

was the big thing. And so like I pretty much, you know, I started doing that like pretty young. And he, I think he believed he was one of those, those believers of like, oh, if you lift too young, then you’ll screw up your growth or whatever. And so he didn’t let me lift until I was like 13, like he wouldn’t let me, you know, do the thing. And I was like, I wanted it. So I think that kind of built up some like anticipation for it too.

but who knows? I probably would have been into it either way. I just was like, I really liked the prospect of like having control over, you know, what you look like and what you feel like. and what kid doesn’t want to be strong and healthy. You know what I mean? So I guess just seeing that growing up, it kind of imprinted on me that like, that was something I, I wanted to do. and then I, and then I also really liked sports growing up too. Like I was always at recess. I was playing sports, was playing soccer, I was playing basketball, you know.

That’s a big way that I socialized and had fun.

So I think, I was always like kind of athletic and focused on that. But I also have like terrible stage fright. So if it was ever like on a team with people watching, my stomach would be in knots. Like I would just, it was crazy. So when I found lifting and started getting into that and realized like I didn’t have to perform or put any on a show for anybody. There wasn’t like an event that I had to show up for. It was just like a thing I could win.

show for myself, that felt like a really good fit for me and my particular interests and aversions, I guess.

Ben (10:19)
So when did you start really kind of getting into lifting weights and working out? it kind of in that high school period? Did you transition? Because I know that there’s a lot of people that I went to school with and they maybe played a sport in high school or maybe a dabble a little bit in college. And then eventually they kind of just got more into working out because that was something that they were doing for their sport anyways. So I’m wondering when did you kind of decide, you know what sports is fun kind of recreationally for me to play every now and then, but.

Sawyer (10:36)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (10:48)
I don’t really have any aspirations of being competitive, so I kind of want to just put my time and effort into working out. I also had a question about inspiration, like physique-wise. I know that you really like like video games and fantasy, so I’m wondering if that ever kind of came into it of like looking at these characters and being like, oh wow, like look at the kind of physiques there. Anime I know for a lot of people is, I know that that’s something that you kind of got into later in life, but I’m wondering if there was any influences there as well.

Sawyer (10:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (11:14)
or like, you know,

Sawyer (11:14)
Yeah.

Ben (11:15)
anyone that you can remember looking up to like wrestlers or pro athletes, you know, thinking about kind of the physiques that they had and finding that inspiring, or was it more kind of just siloed towards like the fitness industry and you were just looking at people kind of there?

Sawyer (11:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That’s a good question, man. I think I can think of specific examples in both camps. I think like growing up, well, so like answer the sports question first. I think the like whole like feeling a lot of pressure with people watching me type thing really started to, I don’t know, wear away at my, the fun that it was for me to be competitive and like to aim for that.

I did play like basketball in middle school, but I was never one of the better ones. just, kind of, can think of all the times where I messed up in the game, not even because I think I would have done it if I wasn’t so nervous. Like I would just like lose the ball or something when it was like, I didn’t have to, like, you know what I mean? So there was like silly mistakes I would make and I think I beat myself up for that. That still do, I guess, if I can remember it, right?

So I think those things kind of discouraged me, dissuaded me from continuing to compete. I also didn’t make the freshman basketball team. I think probably was holding back when I was trying out a little bit nervous. Didn’t know anybody and I think there was like a summer camp I could have gone to or something and I wasn’t very proactive about it. And I think just really my heart wasn’t in it the same way a lot of other kids were. So.

So yeah, think sports just became like a fun thing to do recreationally, but it wasn’t like a thing I wanted to do kind of like on a team in an organized way. But I did continue to take like sports classes in high school every time I could get into a PE class or a lifting, like there was a strength and conditioning class at my high school.

And so I would just always, always try to take some athletic class, because it was just always fun to me and I always felt really good doing that. So yeah, it came pretty naturally to me to want to work on this kind of stuff and immerse myself in that world. then what was the second part of your question? was like, how did the physique aspect kind of get involved? That was what you’re asking.

So I guess starting around middle school, I remember developing some pretty serious body image stuff, pretty young, but when you start finding yourself, I was always interested in girls, but I think it was just like,

around that age, I remember specifically being like, I remember there’s one instance where my arm was on a desk, right? And I remember the desk like folding my forearm a little bit and I was like, my gosh, that looks like fat. I was like a skinny little kid and I was like, you know, imagining myself in like these different, you know, scenarios where people are looking at me and, know, so you feel like eyes on you in that way. And so I think

Instead of addressing or even knowing that I needed to address like, hey, you might be having some social anxiety and stuff you need to look at with your body image. It was more like, well, I’m just going to invest more in this vehicle for change and growth. And so that kind of became the advent of my real, you know, looking into bodybuilding, lifting type thing. And then eventually kind of

immersing myself in that world and like looking up to like fitness models and people on steroids that I didn’t know were on steroids and like, yeah, kind of kind of messed me up eventually. But it was, you know, when it first started, I was like, man, there’s so much potential to change and have the validation of complete strangers. You can walk into a room and people are like, whoa, look at that guy. So I think that really appealed to me from a young age, especially being like an insecure little kid, you know, kind of skinny. I was always kind of skinny and people would point that out.

sometimes and not even necessarily trying to say anything bad about that but it would be like I was so insecure about it that it like affected me you know so I’m always careful commenting on other people’s bodies or try to be

Ben (14:49)
Yeah, absolutely, I can relate to that. I’m wondering, you started lifting more seriously kind of in high school and getting into the physique and the aesthetic component. Can you kind of give a broad overview of then from that point up until now, what does that lifting journey look like for you? What are you like really focused on? What is motivating you? What is inspiring you? I know you’ve talked a lot on previous podcasts about some of these body image.

Sawyer (14:55)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (15:13)
challenges that came up for you and how that fueled a lot of the perhaps fire that went into your physique and went into this pursuit. And I think that it can be a double-edged sword in a way because, you know, on the one hand, it is motivating you to learn more, to continue to kind of like grow in your knowledge, but also I think that it can become perhaps at certain times obsessive or detrimental, at least speaking from my own personal experience, that’s been the case.

Sawyer (15:22)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (15:40)
So I’m just wondering how did your kind of goals grow and evolve over time and then, ⁓ you know, your relationship to your body. I know that that has played a large role. So I’m wondering if you can kind of just give an overview, you know, where did I know you talked about like not wanting to be skinny. So to me that I think of kind of someone who’s starting out and they’re trying to like bulk up. So what was your mindset around, you know, were you trying to intentionally gain weight? Were you trying to stay lean?

Sawyer (15:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ben (16:08)
I know that was kind of a broad jumbo of questions there, ⁓ whatever you feel like is relevant.

Sawyer (16:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

formulating how I wanna frame my answer here. guess over the course of pre-teen to early mid-20s, I kind of…

I think I started out wanting to be like, I just want to like fit in and look normal and like be healthy. Right. And then, and, and maybe look like a basketball player or somebody who has some muscle, isn’t like massive. Right. And like, it kind of started there. And then it would like, kind of moved the goalposts. And I think the more you get into the fitness world and like social media and things like that, the more you see examples of people being praised for bigger and bigger muscles and crazier and crazier physiques and stuff like that. And I think I wanted that. I wanted that kind of recognition.

and that kind of validation. So I think what I did was I kept moving the goalpost. You know, it started out being like, yeah, I want to just have a decent amount of muscle and be healthy and look good in a shirt. And it was like, I to look good without a shirt on actually. I work really hard to get to this point. I want to get far. And then it was like, I want to look like a freak of nature. I was like, I want to scare the hell out of people. So it got like…

kind of out of control, especially because when you are gonna be scary to people and like impressive, you have to be to the level of where some other people are because it’s all relative, right? And so, yeah, I was looking at these fake natties, these people who were, for listeners who don’t know that, that just means like people who claim to be natural lifters don’t use any performance enhancing drugs, but they clearly are.

And that was like, I came up during that era where it was like, people were like, yeah, you just gotta work hard and eat right. And here’s how hard I work and look at my crazy sets of really challenging stuff. Anyway, point is that drove me to like really, really push myself and like, kind of walking around at age 20 feeling like, I have bad knees or I have a bad shoulder or what? You know what I mean? Cause I was just doing so much volume and so much intensity and trying to lift six days a week and.

It was all this stuff of like, I really want to push myself harder. And I think there was like a certain degree of like, I don’t want to get too squishy involved for a long time. And then once I had kind of gotten to the point where I like, okay, the gains are kind of slowing down, the newbie gains phase is over. I was like, well, I still want to gain that. Like I still want to gain quickly. And so that’s where the like aggressive bulking came in. And that was like, you know, mid twenties and something like that, early mid twenties.

I do think that started to be the time where I took a step back though. think going for that was kind good because it was like, okay, you’re not necessarily going to look better, just bigger at any cost, by the way. And also you might not feel the best. yeah, think there’s just certain trade-offs that you start to realize. Like, okay, going for the most and then you get kind of tired of being all beat up all the time. So I think, the consequences, the natural consequences of thinking like that.

kind of taught me that balance is a good thing and patience is a good thing. And then you just have to accept the fact that you’re not gonna look like a steroid user if you’re not using steroids. like, so I learned, you know, I had to learn more basically and it calmed me down. And I started to really rein in my expectations and deal with the fact that what I was chasing was not bigger muscles. It was more…

validation, was more appreciation, was less insecurity of myself. And so I had to like look at those things a little bit more than just like outward appearance and all that stuff.

Ben (19:26)
I love that man. I know that around the time that I met you, you had just finished this big bulk where you had gone, I think above 200 pounds maybe for the first time and you had put on, you know, a lot of strength on a lot of your lifts and that was a very new experience for you kind of going through that, that big bulk and getting the heaviest that you had been. So I’m wondering what was kind of the impetus for that and then where have you been since that and what has been.

Sawyer (19:36)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (19:52)
kind of your main focus would have been some of your goals. I know now obviously you’ve cut down quite a bit from that point. So what have the past couple years looked like and kind of, guess, transitioning into what your goals are now. And I know the last year or two up until I’d say maybe the past six months, you’ve talked about perhaps becoming a little bit disillusioned with lifting or maybe feeling a little bit checked out of that process. But now it seems like you’re kind of back to feeling.

Sawyer (20:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben (20:18)
I’m a little bit more motivated and inspired again. So I’d love to hear about kind of that whole arc for you.

Sawyer (20:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, man, it’s funny how long this feels and we’re just kind of summarizing it in just a couple sentences. But yeah, I think it starts like any other idea where you start to wonder, OK, have I really explored?

this or that, you start to think like, well, what if I’m missing out on some gains or some appreciable progress or happiness or whatever by chasing this other thing or trying this other thing? And I think the mega bulk, whatever you want to call it, was a good experience for me to see what that felt like, to be in a bigger body and also dispel some of the fears that I had around it. I don’t know, it was good experience.

And it taught me that…

You know, there are going to be some pros of doing things like that. Like strength was off the charts. I mean, I haven’t been that strong since, but you know, there are a lot of drawbacks too. And it’s so, it just teaches you kind of what you actually want because you’re, you’re kind of faced with the reality of like, Oh, my body has changed and now things feel different. And do I like that or not? And you sit with it long enough until you’re like, actually, I kind like this better. Or when I was here, that was a little bit better. And so, and, and for me, it’s just been kind of affirming that like, you don’t want to go.

too extreme one direction or the other. You don’t want to like

mega bulk and then now you can’t walk up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing. You know, it’s cool that you’re strong. It’s really awesome. But like it, are some drawbacks so far that you lean in that direction. And the same with getting really, really lean, you know, feeling really lean and light on your feet and stuff like that is cool, but you don’t feel like progress comes as easily and you don’t even look like you lift in a shirt or something like that. So experiencing both of those extremes taught me a lot about what I like and why I do it. And.

know what to shoot for going forward. so yeah, having that experience, think, and all those experiences in between taught me, I guess, I guess to be more in touch with myself and not chase things that feel like, or that other people are just prescribing that worked for them. You know, some people are like, yeah, I’m so strong, cool. I’m like, yeah, that’s awesome. Good for you. I’m not gonna.

bash you for like wanting to, you know, up your squat max and that’s your biggest thing. Right. But it’s like, for me, I realized like through that experience that, you know, it’s, it’s not worth the trade off in some ways to get all the way in that direction, but I could do it. Like it was also affirming, like I can do what I want with my body. And, just because I choose not to does not mean I’m incapable of it. And so it kind of taught me like, yeah, you could do a lot of different things with your body, but like what you’re doing right now, the

pace

you’re going at is because you chose it. And yeah, you could even jump on steroids if you wanted to and look a lot like those other people because you know what you’re doing now, but like you’re not you’re not willing to make those trade-offs either. So it was a really good, like healthy thing for me to experience some of those drawbacks, do some things that I felt like were in hindsight wouldn’t do again. But I don’t think I would have learned as much about myself if I didn’t.

Ben (23:11)
That makes a lot of sense. think there is something to challenging the way that we’ve always done things or going to places that we don’t necessarily want to go. You know, I think about perhaps the client who comes to us, who’s been under eating for long periods of time and they’re scared of, you know, increasing their caloric intake because they don’t want to put on any body fat, but that’s actually the thing that they need to do to either get the physique that they want or just to learn some things about themselves that they wouldn’t learn otherwise. So.

Sawyer (23:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (23:38)
I think

that there’s a lot there. Now coming from that bulk, then how did you decide that, you know what, I want to get to this body composition or I wanted to work towards this goal. And what led to you kind of, I guess we did a podcast about a while back, falling out of love with fitness a little bit and kind of how to navigate that. And now I think you’re kind of into a new era where you’ve kind of gotten over that hump a little bit and you’re feeling.

Sawyer (23:48)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (24:05)
excited again and I just want to say I think that’s very natural as well to have periods of time where maybe your goals change or your level of motivation, inspiration, whatever you want to call excitement towards lifting towards lifting weights, whatever your goals are with your fitness, they’re going to wax and weigh in a bit and that’s okay. So I’d love to kind of hear you talk through your process with that.

Sawyer (24:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, great questions, man. I love how much, you’re so good at these interviews, dude. You really do guide the conversations and keep them very focused. Whereas I feel like I can go down so many rabbit holes if I’m not kept in check. So yeah, the first part of the question, which is like, how did I decide I wanted to find something different or aim for a different physique goal was,

you know, just looking back at different phases that I was in, different, you know, body compositions that I had achieved and like keep realizing like, I really liked this look. I really liked that. and understanding that coming to understand that that was the biggest thing for me. It was not just how I felt, but like how I looked was a big, is a big motivator for me. Like that’s part of what makes this fun is like crafting a look, making the sculpture how I want. And,

You know, I think a lot of people without going too far down a rabbit hole, I think a lot of people think that’s vain and don’t allow themselves to think that way. But I think when you just accept the fact that like something motivates you, as long as you’re not hurting anybody by doing it, then I think you’re going to just be able to live more in alignment with what you want and how you want to do it. But so yeah, to fully flesh out that answer, I realized, you know, I want to be leaner than this, but also

full and see the product of my years of lifting and getting stronger. So I want to find that balance between fullness and leanness that I really liked. And I kind of felt like I was approaching in certain phases of my journey.

And also, to be fair, think part of the reason I did do the mega bulk was because I had leaned too far previous. Like, I decided to do my first real cut in 2018 and I felt awesome. I was like, wow, I look amazing. And I was like really excited about it. And that was, you know, eventually what I ended up looking back on and being like, yeah, I to recapture that. But.

in that cut, didn’t really know exactly what I was doing. So I kind of took it too far and I ended up like too small, too hungry, too tired, lost some muscle. And so I was like, no, we can’t do this. Like if it’s choice between getting too small or too big, I’m going way too big. So I went way too big. And then I learned about, how do you balance these things? How do you kind of figure that out? But even still, once I figured it out, I lived in some ambivalence for a while.

I think a lot of it was situational with what’s going on in the world and the heaviness of some of that.

But also there was a lot of fear underneath like losing size. think growing up a skinny kid and having achieved a certain amount of strength and, you know, kind of bulk that I was like, wow, that’s really cool that I got my arms that big or my bench press was that high or whatever. And then deciding, but I want to be a bit smaller. I want to be a bit leaner and realizing, that’s going to mean your measurements are going down. That might mean some of your lifts decrease, you know, leverages are not going to be as advantageous and that kind of stuff. So that was, that was a tricky hurdle for me to get over too. It was like feeling like.

I was giving up ground on the getting big side of things to ultimately get to where I wanted to be physique wise. So there was a little bit of inner turmoil with that. And that’s why I brought you on. Because I was like, dude, I know this guy knows me. He knows my weaknesses and my strengths. And he’ll be able to just kind of keep me honest and on it with what I really want. And sure enough, you did. And this is…

You know, I’m at a point now where I feel like, as soon as we started working together, I felt like, okay, I’m going to really do this. I’m going to give this a real, real shot. And I was communicative when I felt scared. I know you got where you’re like laughing at me when I was like, dude, my arm measurement went down again and whatever. Like, I know I’m being ridiculous. Like it’s an emotional thing that I’m like, I just gotta be real. That’s how I’m feeling. Anyway, at any point, like,

What was cool about that journey was that now I’m on the other side of that emotional challenge and realizing like, okay, I got that same thing that I wanted, you know, that, that look that I wanted. And now I can kind of play with it from here because I’m, I’m in a good place. It just feels like a really exciting place to be in my fitness journey where I put in some work, I was scared and I got through that, that scary part of the journey.

And that allowed me to see more opportunities and feel more in control. After have gone through all the different things I’ve been through. And that doesn’t mean I’m completely free of fear. Like we were just talking about this morning, how I’m like, man, Ooh, I’m, I am a little bit hungry, but I don’t necessarily want to go up in calories. Cause if I lose conditioning, I’m going to be sad about it. So there’s a little bit of, you know, trepidation there, but it’s nowhere near the level that it was before. don’t feel as out of control or.

as much of a slave to my emotions as I did before, especially with your help. So it’s been a really cool journey realizing like, okay, you’re not going to be without fears and excitements and mistakes, but you can really minimize those by learning a lot about yourself, learning about like how to structure phases and what healthy habits to have around like all the time. And so I think that prospect of like dialing things in is the most exciting part for me right now. It’s not.

Like it used to be where I was like, ⁓ I want to get as big as humanly possible, no matter the cost. And I think that was, you know, what led to the dreamer bulk. And then there was like, I want to get so dice and so shredded. You know, you, you just kind of calm yourself down. You learn more about like, where are the healthy limits of those two things. And you naturally kind of narrow the scope a little bit just because you learn more about yourself and what’s a good range for you. And so I I’m excited about that prospect of feeling like I am in the right zone and I can play with the.

variables from here, but I’m not going to those extremes anymore. I don’t need to explore that territory anymore. I’ve been there, done that, and I want to just feel and look my best and continue to make little improvements, even if I have to be more patient than I ever have been. So that’s been cool.

Ben (29:50)
And I know we’ve had,

yeah, I know we’ve had that conversation about like, you know, there’s a certain level of familiarity that you start to have with like the excitement of transitioning, like, I’m, you know, I’m in a cut now, or I’m in a build now. And that means I’m changing these things and that kind of novelty keeps it exciting. I, something that I’ve kind of encouraged you, I think is just to keep, like you said, that bandwidth between these different phases pretty similar and understand there’s not going to be these huge swings or fluctuations, which

Sawyer (30:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That’s been huge, dude.

Ben (30:18)
can kind of feel almost,

yeah, mean, on a certain extent, it almost is like a little, oh man, like this is a little bit boring, because like things are always sort of the same. But I think that there’s also the stability that comes with that, where you’re not feeling like this emotional volatility as much with being tied to your physique and how it looks, because it’s kind of staying, you’re improving it slowly over time, but you’re staying within this range where it’s not.

Sawyer (30:24)
huh.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (30:43)
You know, you’re super lean and you’re feeling the side effects of that or you’re super big and you’re feeling the side effects of that. It’s just kind of a little bit more constant.

Sawyer (30:48)
Mm-hmm. Or even just feeling out of control.

Like, I could achieve some of these things temporarily.

on my own, but if I was constantly like dialing up the calories really quick or cutting them down really fast or, you know, kind of going back and forth between those two poles, it was like, I felt like I could, you know, I could achieve some stuff, but then it would quickly go away or I felt like it was slipping through my fingers as I achieve, you know what I mean? So having that stability, having the more patient mindset and having you there to be like, we’re not going to touch it actually. And when I would normally be like,

I’m so ready to do this or move in that direction has been huge. It’s been a game changer and it really taught me to like pace myself, take my time. If I want to be able to keep the results that I get, I need to be able to sit with these feelings and not just dial things up because I know how to and it wouldn’t be that crazy or whatever. Classic example is I’ll just tack on fricking tons of volume to my programs and you had to like admonish me a little bit being like, dude, yo, pump the brakes there because

I’m always like, I can train harder. I can do more. And then, you know, you end up in a situation where you’re like, I’m so beat up, you know? So it’s just been very good for my process to have you just being there, slowing down things when I’d really like to go faster. Because again, I want to hold on to the things that I’ve accomplished. I want to be able to maintain and feel it more in control.

Even though I know the tools, still doesn’t know, it still doesn’t mean you have the emotional wherewithal to like use them in inappropriate doses. You could still dial things way up way too much. And that’s kind of been my problem historically, you know.

Ben (32:19)
And I think just because you don’t go to those extreme doesn’t mean that there isn’t stuff to keep you kind of occupied or focused. Like we’ve really made, I think movement outside of training more of a priority with steps and doing the cardio. And that’s been something that has been a learning curve, but now you’re kind of feels like you’re hitting your stride with that. And that’s kind of becoming a little bit more maintenance. It doesn’t mean it’s easy all the time to get it in. Like there’s going to be times where you don’t want to go out and get your steps in or times where you don’t feel like doing your cardio, but.

Sawyer (32:36)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Ben (32:45)
The more that you kind of do it and the more that you get into the habit and rhythm with it, you see the benefits. Like I know that you said that you went on this hike and you were like, wow, my cardio is like so much better than I was expecting. And that was like a big payoff for you. So I think that there’s something to be said about continuing to identify those areas that it doesn’t mean that you have to do anything drastic, but there’s, know, there’s other things that you can focus on too, that don’t involve these like huge changes.

Sawyer (32:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, one thing has been really cool is like the more I track those things, the more I see that it’s improving. I think, you know, I used to just tell myself like, I’m just not good at cardio. Like I just get out of breath so fast and I hate it and whatever. And like if you never do it and you never measure it.

It’s very easy to just pretend like that’s always gonna be the case. You’re always gonna hate it But like you kind of gamify it when you start tracking it Just like with lifting like lifting has always been easy because I was like, I want to get big right? So it’s like just got to get used to that, but I think there were other things It was harder for me to get into cardio and to get into steps because I didn’t see the value in doing that

⁓ but yeah, now with the maintenance of my body composition more easily and the improvements to my cardiovascular fitness, it’s been easy to see. Like how those things have been benefited. And that makes me excited about that prospect too. So there’s this like, it’s become more holistic instead of just me and B me being the guy who eats a lot, trains a lot. It’s, now somebody who’s trying to take care of their health and is trying to get kind of be well-rounded in all these areas and be able to maintain anything that he does accomplish.

and that’s, you know, thanks to my boy right here. So I got to, you know, I really do appreciate the fact that you’ve been able to kind of pick up. mean, we’ve been friends for a long time, but you were able to pick up like what you needed to focus on with me and just speak right to that. And, ⁓ not let me talk you in circles with my anxiety about my arm size and stuff like that. So that’s been great.

Ben (34:27)
Well,

that’s why you get someone in your corner, right, to help you kind of stay level-headed through those moments. And so now, main goals for you, kind of continuing to more or less maintain a smaller range of your body composition changes, continue to build muscle kind of slowly over time, bring up certain muscle groups that are important to you, like your arms, your kind of upper back and traps. Would you say that’s pretty accurate in terms of what your goals are right now?

Sawyer (34:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

yeah, and shoulders. Yeah, I think it’s been cool to like…

the programming changes that you made. think that was pretty huge for me because it was like, yeah, I’ve historically been kind of a volume junkie. And so having you just being like, no, we’re to take every other day off was like a big what moment. And then it’s been so good for my recovery that I’m like, yeah, I’m pretty sold on this, honestly. And that’s been cool. And it’s given me more room to do stuff that I also needed to do, which is like cardio and steps and like having more freedom in my lifestyle. And it’s just been a good, change overall to be like,

a little bit more measured with this stuff instead of just like dumping a whole bunch of volume into stuff. So, yeah.

Ben (35:27)
Awesome, Okay,

I think that’s a pretty succinct, well, we’ll call it succinct. I think it encapsulated everything that we needed to talk about with training, because it’s a long journey, it’s a long history. We’re talking about 10, 15, 20 years here, so there’s a lot to touch on, and obviously we can’t get to everything, but I do think it’s a good time to transition into talking about your path towards adopting a vegan lifestyle. And so I’d love to know.

Sawyer (35:35)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (35:52)
kind of early memories you have of maybe inklings or clues that this was maybe going to be a path that you one day headed down and ultimately what led you to make that decision and what are kind of some of the positives that you’ve seen a result of that would have been some of the challenges, anything you want to touch on relating to that. I know it’s like a wide lens here, but whatever you feel is relevant.

Sawyer (36:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like most people, we all feel like we love and care for animals. And like that was something I didn’t feel like I was, you know, contradicting by eating them at all. and in fact, I think I had more of a resistance to doing like anything. Like I remember just like knowing vegetarians or something and thinking, why? That’s so weird. But

I think it was kind of a feeling like I needed to eat this way to build muscle and be healthy and all that stuff. And then just the fact that I didn’t really know anybody who was vegan, that kept me from it. it kind of just remained kind of…

hidden from me until I was like early 20s and I discovered that lifestyle and started thinking about it more. I think I really thought about it more because I was going through a tough time. Well, Mia and I kind of temporarily had broken up.

And so I was doing a lot of self-reflecting. And so I think those social media posts kind of found me at the right moment of like openness and humility. I think if I had been like bigger than ever and super confident in so many ways, I might’ve just like seen those posts and been like, blah, whatever, stupid vegans, whatever. And you know, so that was good. And then I also encountered like vegan bodybuilders. So I have to like hats off to those guys for being brave enough to like be like, you know what?

but

I’m gonna try this out because I think the first person who’s like the vegan bodybuilder or whatever, early adopters, those people have to be pretty curious and pretty brave and have some pretty powerful experiences.

as you know, like the vegan or the fitness space is a very like monkey see monkey do kind of kind of space. Like if you have somebody that you like idolize for their physique or their routine or whatever, it’s like, you know, we had, we do have some more and more science coming out about how you can do things differently, but like those people will always kind of have a

like a really solid hold on a lot of people’s routines and how they do things. And I think for good reason in a lot of cases, but the way you eat didn’t have to be one. And I started to slowly realize that. And that really opened me up.

empathetically. mean, I did start from a place of like ethics because that was the thing that started getting me to question it in general. But then I was like, Oh, but how can I do that as like somebody wants to be fit and healthy? And then finding vegan bodybuilders was like, you know, just the perfect, uh,

kind of moment of me being like, oh, you know what? I’m going to move in that direction now. I didn’t really have any more excuses. so that turned into, that was about when I was 23. Oh, by the way, actually in 10 days is going to be my 10 year vegan anniversary, which is cool. 10 years, which is cool. That’s awesome. I feel like I should have more vegan swag by this point. It’s kind of crazy how they just, I just don’t have that much vegan stuff.

⁓ but anyway, so yeah, it’s, was 10 years ago now and, ⁓ started phasing out animal products, you know, was expecting maybe more issues with it. And I was like, why do I feel more or less the same? This is weird. Why did everybody tell me for so long that I was going to, you know, lose color in my skin and lose muscle and all this stuff was going to happen. So

Yeah, it just, you you start to unravel things and start to realize and learn more about nutrition and like all these different things. And so that when people try to tell you who you are.

or tell you what you’re gonna experience and the longer you’ve been actually vegan and learned about these things, the more you realize people are just kind of operating on their fears and assumptions most of the time. And so I think that led to a lot of other realizations in life too now that I think about it, just how people act so confident and so knowledgeable. But usually it’s the people who seem the most confident and the most knowledgeable that are the least educated, least informed about anything.

anybody who’s confident is not informed, but it’s just like if they’re confident in the absence of knowledge and humility in certain scenarios, like trying to tell, I don’t know, a doctor about metabolic disease or something like that, you know, they would still assert like, no, I know more about this because, you know, whatever. I think ⁓ there’s a lot of examples of that where I started to question more things through that, but we didn’t need to go down that path. I just thought.

it was a cool effect. And I know you wanted to talk about pros and cons of veganism, maybe that’s a good segue. Yeah, sure. So, one of the cool benefits, and this is something I realized kinda early on, because when I went vegan and…

Ben (40:09)
Yeah, or just like benefits that you noticed, yeah, challenges, maybe that came with it.

Sawyer (40:24)
my brothers hadn’t gone yet. Now they are, they, you know, they’re five years younger than me. Um, and we kind of had terrible eating habits, uh, in terms of like being young dudes who want to build muscle and don’t really have any, uh, fears around like chronic disease or anything yet. So we would have like, you know, big plates of nachos and all kinds of stuff like that. We didn’t have any fear of like eating really just calorie dense, like fatty foods and animal products and stuff. And I remember

early on in my vegan journey. it was kind of like, I don’t know, maybe it was a year in or something like that. My parents had been like, hey, if you get this blood test, we can get a reduction on our insurance payment or something. And I was like, okay, sure. So I did that and my LDL was like pretty low. It was awesome. It was really cool. And like, we weren’t expecting that because my dad has high cholesterol and has had it for a long time.

And, uh, and he wasn’t vegan yet either. And then, um, and my little brother’s the really surprising thing that my younger brothers, five years younger had higher collect, like significantly higher cholesterol, like in the low 100, like one 21 30 LDL. And, know, this is at age like 19, they were or something like that, you know, 18 and, um, and mine was at like, I want to say like 60 seventies maybe. So it was like a stark difference. Like that was a pretty huge thing. And like my, my, uh,

⁓ Every time I’ve gotten my blood checked since, my LDL stayed low, which has been huge. Really exciting, actually. So feels like I avoided what I might’ve just written off as genetics and being a natural thing and having this kind of artery disease like plaque building up over years.

and just not having to deal with that the same way that previous generations did. So that’s a really exciting part of benefits. On the emotional side of things, I guess…

I feel more connected to all sentient life and just life in general on this planet than ever. I thought that I loved animals before and now I really, it was such a metamorphosis of like, it started out as like kind of sympathy, right? It was just kind of like, oh man, they’re so cute and I shouldn’t hurt them if I don’t have to, right? And then it got to a point where it was like, oh my God, we’re just all animals.

it really allowed me to see more clearly that I am no different or better. I shouldn’t say different, obviously I’m different, but I’m no better or more deserving of life and freedom and the things that make me happy as any other animal.

you know, that really rocked my world. And it makes me very unrelatable to a lot of people in human society now. And that could be described as one of the cons or the downsides. But I also think it connects me to people that really get that in a way that I don’t know how to explain. Like when you really…

really agree with somebody on a values and like principles level, but it’s also very niche. Like it’s just not that common to see that in people you get so excited. Like you get so excited when you know people are vegan for the same reasons and, really feel the same way about the world and the animals that you do. It’s like being on cloud nine, when you meet somebody like that. and you just instantly have a closer.

relationship because you know that that person is just like, feels a little bit like different than everybody else like you do, but you at least have that person now. And so that, that’s pretty huge. So I don’t, I don’t see that as a, as a total con to seeing like, you know, other people and feeling like a little bit different than them and maybe having to navigate conversations a little differently.

because I don’t want to insult anybody because they have a different lifestyle and they haven’t had the same experiences that I have yet. Hopefully they will one day, for the sake of the animals, but it’s really cool when you meet somebody who’s been on that kind of arc and they’ve landed in the same place as you. Yeah, hopefully that’s everything.

Yeah, guess, and I guess just the world feels a little bit heavier in general. Once I really, like I said, I started unraveling other things after veganism. And so you start thinking like, wow, there’s a lot of things that exist, a lot of systems in place that really do thrive on oppression. And it really starts to make you question like the things you once thought were wholesome and good. And so you have an inner battle, but I guess that’s just part of growing up too and learning things is just realizing like, okay, not everything is

kind of how you imagined it when you originally learned about it. And there’s a lot of work to be done to make the world a more equitable and empathetic place. So I guess that’s part of growing up too. And then I guess just eating out can be annoying. I guess to end it on an easy one, know, eating out with people can be kind of weird or annoying, but it’s, don’t really, that’s not a big deal.

Ben (45:02)
Yeah, I think the most difficult part for most people is just the social stigma that comes with it and having to navigate relationships with people and having those hard conversations because it feels like you’re at conflict over kind of some of these core values. Even if that person you know, they’re a kind person, they’re empathetic, they’re intelligent, you know, there’s a lot of conditioning that goes into the way that society is structured and the way that people live their lives and that can be really hard to deal with. So I think you really

Sawyer (45:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (45:30)
really well, or I should say you really encapsulated well that kind of feeling of meeting these other people who kind of share that same worldview as you. And I think there is kind of this heaviness that comes with it, like you said, of you kind of start questioning all these ways that you’ve lived your life. And I know that I certainly feel pressure on myself at certain times to do better, to continue to examine the choices that I make and see if there’s ways that I can.

Sawyer (45:39)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (45:55)
make the more ethical decision and weighing all these different factors. It can be a lot. And I think that as vegans, we tend to feel more deeply these emotions and really want to do better. And so there can be a lot more, I think also at times self judgment and feeling like you’re not doing enough. that can be, those can be kind of difficult emotions, but I think it’s all worth it because at the end of the day,

The goal is just to make this world that we inhabit a better place for everyone to live. And so I think that coming back to that message and just trying to look at it through a lens of positivity, I think ultimately helps me to feel more grounded and to feel like I can make a difference and it’s not just futile in what I’m doing.

Sawyer (46:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, man.

always, I always go back to saying like, I don’t know what I would do without, without other vegans. Like if I didn’t know anybody else who was on this arc with me or this, this mission with me, I would feel not just alone, but like also very hopeless. You know, when I see other people doing things that challenges the status quo and like moves the needle in terms of like helping animals, helping other people, you know, it’s not just about, ⁓

just about animals. It’s also about people who are hurt by those systems that we just don’t even think about because it’s just environmental or it’s so spread out. You can’t even really pinpoint how big of a deal this is. mean, using so much resources for this industry and providing very little calories. mean, there’s so many things, the health implications of it. And so…

Yeah, I think it’s very overwhelming at times to make all these realizations and feel like, you if I felt alone in that journey and that process of trying to change that, I’d probably lose my mind. So I also try to have empathy for people who try to be vegan, but feel so alone and so different that they just can’t figure out how to do it within their social circle.

I try to remember to be empathetic for those people too. but at some point I also, I’m just like, you gotta, you gotta have a backbone and you gotta just reach out to other vegans and find community with them because, know, as much as it sucks to feel like a little bit of distance from your family and friends and things like that, there’s just so many ways in which you can.

start to abandon your inner voice, your conscience, if you just think, this is so hard if I do this. Like, if you just keep thinking, I need to make myself smaller for other people, it’s a dangerous place to be. It’s a slippery slope to just becoming a shell of a person who just does what everybody else does. And as hard as it is to go and meet new people and…

you know, have your values that make people uncomfortable and all that stuff. I’d much rather have that problem than feeling like I’m abandoning myself every day by not speaking up for the things that I care about or pretending not to have the values that I have, you know. That would feel like a kind of a spiritual death that I don’t want to grapple with.

Ben (48:52)
And I think building off of that, a lot of times I look at people out in the world and I think that there’s a lot of folks who are suffering and it’s really hard, I think sometimes for people to think to themselves, well, know, if I’m suffering, if I’m really not, you know, I’m having a hard run with things, how can I think about, you know, other people, let alone other animals? It’s like, I gotta just focus on, you know, myself and making sure that I survive. And, you know, I get that. can, you know, I can empathize with that.

Sawyer (49:12)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (49:19)
At the same time, I feel like I think about the times where I’ve struggled the most. And I think sometimes getting outside yourself and looking to just help other people, you know, feel good about things that you’re doing, volunteering, making a difference. Like those are the things that I think sometimes can get us out of that rut of, of suffering or, you know, feeling alone. And I think sometimes it’s like the thing that you don’t feel like doing that ultimately I think ends up helping you. And I’ve heard that story from people who have gone vegan, who were like, I was in a really bad place, but just like feeling like I was doing something.

Sawyer (49:31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ben (49:48)
good for someone else other than myself, like really made a big difference. I don’t want to go too far down this rabbit hole, because I’m sure we could keep talking forever. But I did want to just say that I think sometimes, you know, getting outside ourselves, helping others, whether those be other humans or other, you know, animals we share the planet with, just that feeling of, you know, how that makes you feel. I think it’s, you know, it can be difficult, but getting past that barrier, I think is worth it.

Sawyer (49:48)
Hmm

Thanks.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And it’s very easy to think, oh, I’m only going to encounter resistance. Like people in my life are really going to not like that I’m making this change. And that might be true. But the appreciation you get from people who see what you’re doing and how hard it is and who have been through that, like I said, with creating community with other vegans and other people who are trying to live more conscious lives, it’s unmatched, you know, like.

I often make the joke that like, you know, vegan men don’t even realize like how good they have it because like there’s so many vegan women, so many empathetic women who are looking for vegan men and these dudes don’t even realize it. They think, ⁓ I’m just going to like be limited in my social life and I’m going to have like, can’t eat at every restaurant. It’s like, dude, do you understand how much these vegan women want a vegan man? Like there’s so many women that I meet on a regular basis.

who are like, my gosh, I’m trying to find this vegan, like my vegan, you know, Prince Charming or whatever. And it’s so hard for them because I think what is it like 85 % of vegans are women or something like that. By the way, hats off to you ladies. You guys are definitely ⁓ winning that in that realm and many others, in my opinion. But yeah, I think it’s one of those things where having the courage to do something that you’ve realized is…

know, scary but the right thing to do. It really does pay off in ways that you really can’t foresee from the very beginning, you know? So, just hopefully that’s encouraging to somebody listening to this.

Ben (51:39)
Yeah, I totally

agree. Men out there, don’t go vegan just for women. That’s the wrong reason. But like Sawyer said, there are a lot of hidden benefits that you don’t necessarily see and it’s not always as restrictive as you would think. think that some of the quote unquote cons like Sawyer was describing actually end up being pros in the long run. your circle might get smaller, but those connections are really meaningful to you in a special kind of way. Okay, Sawyer, let’s transition a little bit.

Sawyer (51:43)
Yeah.

Ben (52:07)
What got you into coaching? Why did you want to be a coach?

Sawyer (52:07)
Okay.

Good question, man. So I think I kind of was a coach before I knew I was a coach because I, like, you know, any other teenager who was very into working out and body image and all that stuff was, I was learning a lot and.

you know, talking about it a lot. And so the people that I met and the friends that I made were interested in understanding more, you know, and, and they want, everybody wants to be fit and attractive, whatever. So they would ask me, you know, can we work out together? And I would have them come over to my parents’ house, you know, where I was living. And then we would do a workout together. and I teach them about different exercises and stuff. And so was a cool little like micro chasm where they could come and be safe and not have to go to a public gym and all that. So that was cool.

But the path remained to keep going to school and I ended up going down the path of doing law school and all that stuff because I didn’t want to make a decision on my career yet. then…

once I had actually become a lawyer and started practicing, I was like, no, this ain’t it. And I quickly was like, I’m gonna go back to that thing where I was coaching and encouraging people and it was fun for me to see that spark in people. And so I think, yeah, it just became like a…

It was like a default thing, because I was like, what else do I do? I hate this thing that I studied, even though I thought, you know, maybe I’ll like it if I find an area, you know? And it just didn’t really come together. And so the easiest alternative was like, I’m just going to do something I know I’m good at and I love, and I could talk about all day. And so that’s where it went from there. Yeah.

Ben (53:35)
What do feel like have been some of the biggest benefits or things that you’ve learned as a result of coaching?

Sawyer (53:41)
my god, so much, dude.

I mean, the biggest thing is just like realizing that so many other people are so different from you. Their lives are so different. The way they’re, what makes them tick is so different. And that the scientific principles don’t change, right? Like being in a calorie deficit, doing a certain amount of volume for training and like stimulus, like that stuff all stays the same, but like the way you implement it needs to be flexible enough so that you can get people to buy into that process and feel encouraged by that process and not be overwhelmed.

about that process. that, that it’s always the implementation and the psychology that has, has been the biggest learning curve because like, you know, when you first start with anything, you just think it’s the thing like, I just need to learn what’s the rep range that people need to be in and then just do that. Or I just need to learn what are the best exercises, but it’s like, what if they don’t like that exercise? You know what I mean? That’s, that’s where the learning comes in and being like,

okay, what is gonna make it stick for this person and make them feel encouraged? That’s where I learned the most. And it’s pretty cool when you start to realize like, okay, we’re doing something completely different than anything that would work for me, but it’s working for them.

And that’s where you realize you’ve grown because when you first start doing anything, you’re just telling people what you do. And that’s, it works for some people who are very similar to you, but when you look back and you think, wow, I could have done better with this or that person. And then you realize you’re are doing that now.

It feels really cool to be able to help more people. So yeah, I think, I think it’s just like a cool journey of like, okay, I can help more people than ever, not because I learned more science, but because I learned more about people, you know, pretty cool.

Ben (55:15)
I like that

you mentioned that one thing that you’ve picked up on with working with others is just the individuality of it and the puzzle piece of it. And I think that’s what a lot of us like as coaches is kind of having this person in front of us who it’s not like they’re an equation to solve. They’re a complex human being. And that’s not, it’s not that it’s a game, but it is kind of, it keeps you on your toes. keeps you sharp. think your skills as a, ⁓ know, your people skills, but also your skills in this profession.

Sawyer (55:25)
Mm-hmm.

you

Ben (55:43)
⁓ kind of your more like domain specific skills around programming, psychology, you know, what’s going to work for different people. ⁓ so that’s kind of a little bit about what, you know, working with people has taught you about others. I’m wondering, can you think of anything that you’ve kind of learned about yourself through the process of coaching other people?

Sawyer (55:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, man. I think that just to remain curious is so important. Like if you think you have it all figured out, that’s when you stop growing. Like that’s when you stop becoming a better person and someone who is more useful to other people. like, you know, if I thought, you know, just telling people the information was the most important part or that I thought that, you know, I have the answers and they don’t.

all the time because this is my domain and not, you know what I mean? I think that would be really problematic because then I would just end up kind of preaching to them about what they need to do instead of really asking, well, what do you think you need to do? what, and like, what has been successful for you in the past and why do you think that is? And then we kind of create an amalgamation of the two things of like, okay, so what you’re doing before you stuck to it. And that’s great. Cause we can learn about what makes you come back to it. but.

what principles were we not adhering to that were, you know, helping you build. So I think that’s something that I learned is just like, remaining curious is really important because if I don’t and I just kind of tell people stuff repeatedly, I’m going to feel bad because I’m not helping them and they’re going to feel bad because they’re not making progress and they feel like it’s their fault. So it’s like a…

it just doesn’t work if both parties are not open and honest and curious about what could be. And I think that has implications as to just relationships in general and realizing like…

me dictating stuff to people, telling people how to love me, telling people how to deal with me. while it can be of some value, I don’t, I don’t think we, any of us even completely understand ourselves. And so to act like, yeah, I need this or I need that, or they didn’t do that, you know, right. Is to kind of assume that you know, everything.

already and that kind of stifles growth and excitement. I think that’s what makes things exciting. Like for instance, with fitness, I don’t think I would have as much fun if I just had a goal of like, oh, I just want to maintain everything I got right now. Like granted that’s valuable and that’s really good, but I still, if I have that edge of like, okay, I’m going to kind of calm down in my goals. I’m not going to try to jump into like massive calorie surplus and whatever.

⁓ but I still want to make progress. Like that’s what makes it exciting because there’s growth potential there. And I think the same thing about relationships. think the same thing about, I don’t know, explore traveling. Like there’s, there’s a growth aspect to it. Cause if it wasn’t, you would just feel like, okay, I’m just doing the same formula, but in a different place or with a different person or whatever. And I’m just trying to kind of not lose instead of actually win. So that’s not as fun.

Ben (58:34)
Love that. Sawyer who are some of your favorite kinds of clients to work with?

Sawyer (58:34)
Yeah.

Great question. I think the people who are the most…

emotionally invested and honest, like the people who get the most excited about a PR or about a new thing that they’re able to do. I get so excited with them. think it’s so fun to see people, you know, lift more than they thought they could learn something that had been bothering them. they, you know, that growth, the same thing, the growth when they recognize it and they appreciate it and I recognize it. And I, I’m like, wow, I helped you do that. That feels really good. And they feel really good. That’s the exciting thing. And so.

I think as long as somebody is honest with themselves about what they want and they come to…

the relationship curious and as open as they can be, that that will naturally happen. If we hit some landmarks, we do some things that they haven’t been able to do on their own before. And they’re expressive about it. I think the more honest somebody is, the easier it is to be excited with them. Because if they’re downplaying it or they don’t want to acknowledge that they’ve achieved something, I’ll get mixed signals. be like, wait, are you happy about this? Is this a good thing? Or you expected this from yourself?

So I think, when people are like both really emotionally invested and they can’t really hide it and they’re excited about things. And I’ll be honest, I even like when they’re honest about their not so comfortable emotions because it makes me feel like I can be there for them in darker moments and like really dig into what is it that they’re chasing and that’s the problem.

So I think just, more emotionally honest people and curious people are the most fun to work with because I can really feel how they feel. It’s easier to empathize and feel like I’m sitting there with them in the same room and like going through the same things with them. I just feel more emotionally invested and that’s cool.

Yeah, but I get why people would be muted. They’re afraid to scare people off and maybe showing their emotions has been punished in the past, is the truth, a lot of guys. So I’m not, I would never assume that somebody doesn’t feel good or feel emotions, but when it’s more obvious, it’s more fun to me. So I try to encourage bringing that out by being somebody that they feel like they can trust with heavy things and exciting things and…

I’m going to celebrate with them. I’m going to cry with them. I’m going to, you know what I mean? Like that is connection and that is fun for me.

Ben (1:00:52)
Yeah, it’s genuine, right? There’s authenticity

there and you feel like I actually have a connection with this person and they don’t feel afraid or maybe they do feel afraid, but despite that fear, they show up and they communicate with you. And I think that’s the biggest thing, right? Is there has to be some line of communication because I think that’s the most thing, the thing that probably bums us out the most as coaches is just when there’s a lack of communication and we can’t try to dig deep with somebody, even if it’s starting really small with, hey, how was your day? Or, know,

Sawyer (1:01:16)
Yes.

Yeah.

Ben (1:01:22)
you know, how are you right now, even small stuff like that. Sometimes it’s really hard to get through to people or they don’t want to, you know, engage with that process. So I think that, like you said, having somebody who’s willing to kind of show up as, Hey, this is me right now. You know, they don’t have to share everything, but just being willing to have that conversation, I think is so huge. ⁓ Sore, what’s what? Yeah. What’s one thing that you have changed your mind on since you started coaching?

Sawyer (1:01:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, great way. Great, said.

man, that’s a great question. I think I wrote something down, which is good, because I feel like there’s so many things I could go into. Change my mind on… I mean, I guess there’s specific examples of things I could say like, ⁓ this is the best rep range, like…

you know, getting less dogmatic about things in general, I guess is one thing I could say, like realizing, whether by the science or by experience that like, I was a little too narrow-minded about this thing. You know, there’s a lot of examples of that.

But I guess the biggest thing is just like I mentioned earlier, like realizing other people are different psychologically from me and what drives them and what systems work for them. And if you don’t lean into that and you think you just have to make a little mini me, you’re gonna be disappointed every time because just everybody’s a little bit different at least. sure, there’s a lot of commonality.

And I tell people like, hey, this is like where I like to start with people and get them kind of on the same page. But like from there, I want you to tell me when things are bothering you, they feel tedious, they don’t feel sustainable because that could be clues. Those little cracks that appear are often clues to show what we could try and tweak to make it more sustainable for you. So I think like,

How I’d summarize that is saying like, you don’t need to like follow a program to make progress. You need to make a program for you. You need to like have this protocol be like the way of doing things that feels the best to you.

because it’s never gonna feel like doing nothing, right? Like it’s way easier to sit on the couch and not work out. But if you have a choice between working out this way, this way, or this way, and you’re like, this is the clear winner, you’re like, but people get all twisted up and they say things like, but I know I’m supposed to do this exercise, so I should probably do it this way. And I’m like, hold on. Wait, do feel like you could push yourself harder and go more consistently if we did it this way, even if it were a little slower? And they’re like, yeah, I’m probably gonna go with that, just for the plain and simple fact that I don’t want them.

I guess it depends on the person’s history, but if they have a history of doing it for a while and then falling off and then doing it for a while and then falling off, I’m going to be more in the direction of, I really wanna make this more sustainable for you. Or if they’re in the direction of I do it forever and then I don’t get any results, so it’s a problem, maybe we need to revisit how we’re going about it and maybe do something a little bit more different than they’re used to doing. So I guess…

It differs for different people, but I think the real main lesson is like follow, like listen to people when they say that they like or don’t like something and try to get it out of them even if they’re trying to quiet that part of themselves and say, no, I can do this. This is totally fine. And they’re kind of even lying to themselves a little bit and saying, yeah, I can do this forever. It’s cool. Try to get it out of them because there’s probably more than one way to do that thing. And if it feels like…

they can kind of take some weight off of their back by doing it a different way. It’s probably worth doing and ⁓ it’ll make the outcome or the likelihood that they can keep it going once I’m not a factor. They can really increase their chances of sticking with it and making progress every year.

Ben (1:04:44)
I think that’s one reason we like doing the videos back and forth with people is because you pick up on things that you wouldn’t pick up on otherwise, the way they say things or maybe their tone. And I think coaching is a lot more about, a lot more than just taking what somebody says at face value and running with it. It’s about reading between the lines and understanding what it is that they’re actually communicating to you. So I think that it’s an art that you kind of get better with over time as you go. Now to finish.

Sawyer (1:04:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ben (1:05:10)
If there’s somebody who’s just starting out and they’re getting into working out, they’re getting into fitness, they want to be healthier, they want to be in better shape, look better, whatever their goals are, what is one piece of advice that you would give to somebody? Maybe it could be that you would have given to yourself when you were younger, but it could just be someone generally who is starting out and they’re thinking about wanting to commit more time and attention and energy towards this pursuit.

Sawyer (1:05:19)
Mm-hmm.

my gosh, that’s such a hard, that’s such a loaded question because you’re like, it depends so much on the person and how hard they are on themselves and where they fall and where they thrive. But I guess is to cultivate some knowledge of self.

Try to get an understanding of where you fall down. Is it because you’re too hard on yourself for this? That’s a very common one, right? And learning that, you know, being too hard on yourself is not the solution to falling off. In fact, it’s usually the cause. You know, when you start adding the rocks to your backpack and then all of a sudden you can’t hold it anymore,

The solution is not to add more rocks and just be tougher about it. It’s to realize, you know what? I might be adding some of these unnecessarily. Maybe I should take some weight off and just keep going with some lighter stuff. And I think a lot of people do that because they think they have to be perfect from the outset.

Yeah, that’s just one example. Like really try to understand yourself and where things start to go wrong, how you might differ from other people and understand that like everybody has their own way of doing things. So if you haven’t found yours yet, you haven’t found the rhythm that works for you, the system that really clicks for you, it doesn’t mean you’re unreachable. It just means you haven’t found your way yet. And I think the more examples of people in your life who are similar to you in certain ways, you’ll probably learn some stuff from

from them that it would be maybe years down the line that you figured out about yourself. So I think if you can just expose yourself to more and more people, the ways of doing things, there will be ways that kind of keep coming back as like, yeah, when I was doing it that way, that felt way easier, that felt way better, or actually made really good progress. So trial and error, just kind of try to…

do as much as you can in a shorter period of time. Don’t try to make the perfect plan, just keep trying things and you’ll, through experience, learn what feels the best for me. Kind of like finding a job that you like, right? I think we all have a history of jobs we probably weren’t in love with.

and we thought maybe it would work for us, but you can’t actually know until you do it. Same kind of deal here. If you think an idea is gonna work for you, try it out and learn. Do it long enough before you learn, like, does this feel like something I could do indefinitely or is this like a big no-go for me? I think that will help more than watching a thousand YouTube videos about how somebody likes to do things, you know, the best way to do something. You know, yeah, I guess that’s I’ll tell people.

Ben (1:07:46)
Cool man, you’ve had a lot of wisdom in this one. I know it’s been you mostly talking and me mostly asking the questions. So I appreciate you giving some thought to these ahead of time and really making sure that you kind of fleshed everything out to the greatest extent possible with the time that we had. So I just want to thank everyone for listening to another episode here. If you related to any of this or you had any thoughts, of course, we always welcome conversation down in the comment section below if you’re listening over on YouTube.

Sawyer (1:08:01)
Mm-hmm.

Ben (1:08:14)
You can also find this podcast on Spotify and on Apple podcasts. It always helps if you are able to give the show a rating or to give a review. Obviously, if you’re listening, sharing it on social media and tagging us is a great way to kind of support the show. Sharing it with friends, family, anyone that you think would enjoy obviously helps. You can find us on social media everywhere, you know, at Vegan Proteins and at Muscles by Brussels.

our website veganproteins.com. If you’re interested in coaching and getting somebody to kind of guide you along this process, if you related to what Sawyer was saying here, if you feel like it could be helpful to have somebody to kind of show you the ropes, so to speak, or to, you know, kind of help you from falling into some of these pitfalls, then that’s what we do. So you can fill out an application there and we’ll get back to you as soon as possible. You can find myself at Ben A. Mitchell and Sawyer at Sawyer Boy Fitness Coaching.

⁓ And then Alice is at vegan proteins, Alice. Thank you again, everyone, for listening to another episode. I’m Ben.

Sawyer (1:09:12)
And I’m Sawyer.

Ben (1:09:13)
and we’ll catch you guys in the next one. Thanks so much. Bye everyone.