Ep 223 – The Psychology Behind Cheat Meals

This week’s episode of Muscles by Brussels Radio is a good one—and a real peek behind the curtain of what actually happens when we’re coaching clients through body comp goals.

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Whether you’re a coach or someone chasing your own goals, this one’s a reminder that success is never just about the numbers.

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TRANSCRIPT:

[Sawyer]

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Vegan Proteins Muscles by Brussels Radio. I’m Sawyer.

[Dani]

And I’m Dani. And thanks for tuning in.

[Sawyer]

Yeah, thanks for tuning in, guys. I never know what to say at the beginning of these.

[Dani]

Yeah, so usually, I mean, I edited the podcast that you did with Giacomo recently. I think it was

the burnout one. Maybe it was the nutrition mistakes one.

I can’t remember. But like, you just jumped right into the topic. And Giacomo was like, Whoa,

whoa, what?

I don’t even like warm up to this topic.

[Sawyer]

I know I get it. Anytime, anytime there’s any kind of tension within me, I’m this is something

about me is I cannot keep secrets. I cannot deal with tension.

It’s a real problem. It’s something I need to work on. Because I’ll just like blurt out things.

And just like, I don’t know. It’s like, it’s kind of awkward. And people are like, okay, and then

they have to just, like deal with it.

[Dani]

But I am not very good with silences. Like if there’s a sound that’s too long, I got to fill it. My

God, not a good quality.

But there it is. And what’s worse is if stuff starts to get kind of heavy, I immediately have to

make a joke. And that’s not appropriate.

[Sawyer]

So I’ve literally been in the car with like a couple that was fighting and I’ll like make a joke about

it. And I’m like, looking back, I’m like, that was so messed up. Because now they think I like I’m

laughing at their pain.And it’s terrible, because I’m not I’m just uncomfortable. And I’m just like, I need to say

something to make. And it doesn’t work.

So you know, I’ll watch like The Office and I’ll be like, Oh my god, I’m Michael Scott. Like I’m

literally sometimes I’m Michael Scott. And it’s really hard to watch.

It makes that show extra cringy for me.

[Dani]

That’s really funny. Because I think Giacomo is kind of like Michael Scott.

[Sawyer]

Really?

[Dani]

Yep. There’s so many things that he’s done in the show where I’m just like, that would be

Giacomo. But I really struggle with secondhand embarrassment.

There’s some YouTube shows where people, they go and they play these really, really

uncomfortable pranks. On my brother showed me one, I think it’s called like Adam ruins

everything.

[Sawyer]

So yeah, I’ve heard of that.

[Dani]

So yeah, he showed me it’s like this huge elaborate, almost like Borat style. Yeah. Which some

of those are really funny.

But sometimes it’s like, I just want to crawl out of my skin watching it. Because I know that

people don’t know that they’re can’t stand it.

[Sawyer]

Yeah, I like to run away from the screen sometimes.

[Dani]

Yep, I can’t watch them. But what have you been up to?

[Sawyer]

Well, we recently were like, you know, maybe the we had been looking for property inWashington, you know, and we’re like, you know what, maybe that’s not the move. Because it

just wasn’t. It just seemed like more and more that we’re gonna have to force something we

didn’t want.

You know what I mean? So we ended up just being like, yeah, you know what, let’s take a step

back from that. And Mia has to do her.

She’s finishing up her CPA exams too. So really hoping for her to pass those this time this next

time around. But also we were like, let’s, let’s just do some traveling.

Let’s lean into that. Let’s look around the world for properties too, which is another aspect to

travel. So we actually booked a place in for the month of September in Costa Rica.

So yeah, so now we’re gonna be that’s that’s the new plan is like we’re going just totally

opposite with it. But it’s cool. It’s exciting.

[Dani]

Old digital nomad, right?

[Sawyer]

Yeah, totally. So it’s gonna be a challenge to figure out, okay, like, where’s the internet access

and all this stuff. But the cool thing is that we’re actually doing it through some friends that

already live there.

So we kind of get to ask them questions and have them help us out with, you know, the whole

setup and stuff. So that’s, that’s the exciting part is like, okay, there’s some, we have some

some roots there that have been planted. So we can go from there.

[Dani]

Either of you speak Spanish?

[Sawyer]

Yeah, we’re, um, so Mia is better than me. She’s, she’s grew up in a Spanish speaking

household. But for whatever reason, her parents didn’t teach her, which I’d be pissed about.

But she’s pretty good. She can she can hold a basic conversation. She gets better at it.

She goes, I’m a little more nervous, you know, white boy trying to figure it out. But I, I’d say I’m

like 25%, 35, 3% fluent, like, I can, I can, well, I mean, that’s a lot. I can hang, I can understand

more than I can speak, because I haven’t tried it as much.

But I can I can understand it if it’s especially if it’s spoken slower. So I can, I can, we’re gonna do

it. It’s gonna be cool.[Dani]

That’s exciting. I’m really excited for you guys. You’ll have to let us know how that turns out.

Because I’ve often thought about things like that.

[Sawyer]

Well, maybe we’ll do some blogging style content while we’re there. And we can.

[Dani]

Yeah.

[Sawyer]

Everybody.

[Dani]

Don’t turn into a new Freely the Banana Girl while you’re there.

[Sawyer]

I know, that’s the crazy thing is like this, the vegan space. And yeah, I guess like the people that

do end up living in places like that tend to be the more like, anti intellectualist, anti science type

people.

[Dani]

Yeah, it does seem that way.

[Sawyer]

Bummer. Yeah. Anyway, what’s been up with you?

[Dani]

We just got back from Colorado, I got sick for a week. It’s funny, because I was recording a

YouTube video about how I travel without falling off track, like, all of the things that I do to help

stay on track with nutrition and training and everything when I travel. So when I come back, I

just went right back in the flow.

And then I got sick as a dog when I got home. So I’m gonna leave that part out of the YouTube

video. But if you’re listening, and you watch it, you know that I did, in fact, get sick after I got

home.

Not the beacon that I hope it would be.[Sawyer]

Well, hey, you know, nobody’s perfect. You can’t control everything. But you do your best.

And you’ve learned a lot from you’ve done a lot of traveling over the years. So I’m sure there’s

gonna be lots of good tidbits in there.

[Dani]

I think so. I hope so. But I wanted to talk about something today that is like kind of a big pet

peeve for me.

And I feel like I’ve really eased up on my semantics with people like 10 years ago, I was really

very toning. Yes, that’s exactly the example that I was thinking of. Like I would jump down

someone’s throat 10 years ago about that.

And now it’s like, just shut up, Danny, you know what they mean? cheat meals, that one is it’s

still one that I put my foot down every time I hear a client say it. I don’t like the I don’t like it at

all.

And but some people do like it. They like the idea that I just wanted to kind of toss around the

idea of the whole idea of cheat meals. And whether they’re like, beneficial or harmful.

[Sawyer]

So so you’re like, very anti don’t like the language. Do you are you the same about like the the

practice of it or like whatever the actual?

[Dani]

No, like I have I have some clients that have what I call a free meal written into their program,

sometimes a few of them a week, actually, depending on the person. Mm hmm. But to me, that

is what like free meal and cheat meal are completely different things to me.

[Sawyer]

It does feel so different. Just even hearing like, yeah, it’s just hearing it sounds different. But I

will say this, I don’t hear people talk about that that much.

Personally, like people don’t come to me and say, Hey, can I have a cheat meal or something?

I’m I don’t really hear that that much. I guess maybe because my nutrition approach is kind of a

little bit more hands off anyway, which is to be like, I give people most of the time when I when

I work with people, I’m like, Okay, yeah, here’s here’s your macros.

And here’s all the stuff you could do if you want to really dial everything in. But and then I’ll be

frank, I’ll be like, personally, though, I do protein and calories, and I give myself 100 calorie

range. And what I think is really the most important process for you to go through in thisnutrition process is not to like, try a meal plan and do a bunch of different stuff, like getting all

intense about it.

But I think finding what you gravitate towards, and then learning within those bounds, the

protein and the calories, how can I, oh, maybe I’m falling short of my protein goal, I need to like

within these bounds, I need to increase the protein or, oh, I’m tending to be going over my

calories a little bit, I need to might maybe just dial those in a little bit, change the source of this

or that, so that they’re actually eating how they want to, but then slowly over time adjusting it.

So I don’t think, yeah, I just don’t spend that much time talking about like a cheap meal or a

free meal, because I’m, in my opinion, it’s like, well, those are going to happen in terms of like,

well, you’re just giving yourself protein and calories. So you don’t really need to have anything.

But then again, I guess some people when they’re on a diet plan, or they’re on a meal plan, I

guess they could see that like, there would be a need for that.

Because there’s like a pressure release valve, so to speak in that situation.

[Dani]

So I think you bring up a really good point that you just don’t hear about it that much, because

I’m thinking back and back, and I definitely used to hear it more. But I also think the meaning of

it changed over time. Like 10-15 years ago, everybody was doing a meal plan.

If they were on a program, they were doing a meal plan. So a cheat meal was literally like any

food that wasn’t in that program was a cheat. And that was the nightmare.

That’s like the fastest recipe for like an effed up relationship with food on earth. But even with

the introduction of more flexible dieting approaches, which is, you know, that’s what you’re

talking about. I think that even though those approaches include like, you should theoretically

be able to include just whatever foods that you like to have and work for your schedule.

I think cheat meal has turned into like, I blew my macros. And that was a cheat meal now.

[Sawyer]

Oh, I see. That makes sense. And yeah, I guess I just don’t often hear it framed that way.

But that would make sense why some people would be like, well, that’s, I’m just gonna allow for

that. Because that’s a cheat meal now, in the context of this, this program. And I guess to that

end, I would say, the more frequently that feels like it needs to happen, I think the more you

need to look at your symptoms of diet fatigue that are starting to accumulate in whatever

phase you’re in.

Because if the second you get there, you give yourself some freedom or you like, there’s so

much freedom in a protein and calories approach, or like, in my opinion, that it basically should

work for anybody outside of like, some pretty serious physiological or psychological stress. Sowhenever it starts to appear in that context, I’m like, Oh, okay, what’s going on? What are you

feeling in your body right now?

What are you feeling in your mind that you can’t do? Because I’d rather fix that than even

address like, well, let’s have a pressure release valve in this system for some. So I guess I’m

more like looking at this long term of like, okay, phasically, like, if I’m looking at as a coach, and

I’m saying, okay, you’ve been dieting for three months.

And now you’re starting to notice, you’re having a harder time staying in the calorie range.

That’s normal. And that probably rather than saying, let’s give you a cheat meal, or let’s give

you a free meal, I’m probably going to say, well, we can increase your calories on the full blown

maintenance mode, and then go back to a dieting phase if you still have more progress you

want to achieve.

So I guess I just don’t even deal with them that much. So you know, and if that’s not the point of

this conversation, I’ll totally just be like, well, let’s let’s pivot to that. But my point is, like, I don’t

even think that they need to be a part of the conversation.

[Dani]

Do you ever have clients like that when they when they blow their macros when they go over

their calories, or do that and are consistently not hitting their protein, like the way that they talk

about it is like, overly negative? Like, do you get that at all?

[Sawyer]

You know, I so personality dependent on that one. Some people beat themselves to crap for the

slightest deviations. And so those people I have to be like, Hey, look, you’re human.

It happens. If it keeps happening, and you’re like really upset about it, then let’s just put you in

a maintenance phase, or let’s give you more calories on the weekend. Because here’s here’s

what we could do to like, be a little bit more flexible for you.

So that you don’t feel like this intense, like, I need to be perfect all the time kind of feeling

because that’s just not healthy or conducive to progress. But then there’s some people who will

just be like, it happens, whatever, like, I just had somebody say that I was like, Okay, he was just

kind of like, yeah, like, I’ve been going off the rails on the weekends lately. And from the data I

was collecting, I was like, this is kind of undoing all the work that you’ve been doing throughout

the week, in my opinion, the last couple of weeks.

So I’m like, this is something I need to draw attention to. And because it’s not being taken

seriously enough, right? So So yeah, it depends on the person is what I’m saying, I guess is like,

and it’s really like, it’s never a conversation about how bad they should feel about it.

Like, I don’t I don’t ever want people to feel bad about not being able to stick exactly tosomething because it probably means that they are outpacing their excitement about a

program that they’re running, right? So it or they’re just like their their body is really pushing

back. So I have to kind of get a feel my job as their coach is to get a feel for like, okay, you’re

giving yourself this break and on the weekends, and you’re like, okay, but you know, it’s not a

big deal.

So I’m like, Okay, so what is what you’re saying with that, that you’re okay with going slower

right now, or like maintaining for a while? Because if you are, then all right, maintenance phase,

it is right. I’m gonna tell you, you can’t do a maintenance phase.

That’s never a bad idea physiologically. So yeah, cool. But if there if it’s gonna be one of those

things where they’re like, I’m giving myself these breaks on the weekend, it’s not a big deal.

But why am I not losing weight? Yes, my job is very frustrating. Yeah.

So my job is to tell you, hey, I’m seeing a discrepancy here in your stated goals, and the things

that we’re doing that are resulting in this data. So I’m just going to draw attention to that. And

here’s what I think we would want to do if you care to fix that.

And if you don’t, then we’ll maintain for a while. And then we can see where you’re at in a

couple weeks. And if you want to transition back to cutting or whatever it is.

So yeah, yeah. I don’t know.

[Dani]

I feel like I’ve this is something I’ve thought about quite a bit is because I think that we at vegan

proteins take a flexible evidence based approach, which I wouldn’t do it any other way. But it

means there’s like 100 ways to get to the same place, right? Yeah, there’s no one way to get to

it, which is great.

And it’s very appealing to a lot of people. But there’s just as many if not more ways to not get to

it. And I feel like that is where sometimes it can be difficult to explain that to clients, because we

are so flexible about the methods we use to get there.

But sometimes you look at what the picture of what’s going on, it’s like, some folks really

literally want to have their cake and eat it too. And you have to be like, Okay, this is going to

take forever. Yeah, or we’ve got to do it a different way.

And there’s a million different ways we could do it. But this isn’t one of them.

[Sawyer]

Yeah.

[Dani]And I just like told them Santa Claus isn’t real or something.

[Sawyer]

I know. Well, you know, it’s it’s tough. Because yeah, you’re right.

We have this flexible evidence based approach, which gives us a lot of tools to help a lot of

different kinds of people. But it does increase the pressure on us to be educational with our

approach. Because if they don’t understand the approach or why it’s working, then they can’t

keep it going when they’re on their own.

And they don’t understand why we’re pressuring them in a certain direction when they’ve said,

Well, I’m cool with going slower or whatever. Well, I’m like, Well, if nothing’s happening, that’s

not slower. That’s nothing.

So there there’s, it’s hard to have these, you know, shades of gray. For people who are not

fitness maniacs, like we are. So it does require a lot of education, a lot of communication.

[Dani]

And so my favorite part, so I don’t know at all.

[Sawyer]

Yeah, well, I mean, it also leaves people in a better position, because there’s a lot of people that

and a lot of programs, frankly, they don’t really care what happens after they’re just like, well,

they’re preying on people’s ignorance about these. Yeah, so exactly. Yeah, that’s Yeah, to put it

bluntly.

It’s like, yeah, they don’t really care. Like, okay, the people are gonna be happy while they’re

there, because they’re losing weight. And they’re gonna feel like, wow, this is really simple and

straightforward.

This is great. But then afterwards, they’re gonna be like, Well, I can’t do this forever. And I don’t

know how to adjust things like go into a maintenance phase.

I don’t know how to do that. You know, they end up just kind of bouncing back and down, up

and down with their goals. And then people can keep them on the leash forever and say this is

the only way you make progress is when you’re with me.

Right? So yeah, it’s it’s it’s one of those things where and even when people say to me, like, you

know, and I asked them in intakes, and I’m like, Hey, what’s worked for you in the past, and

they’ll always be like, well, the accountability. And to me, it’s not like, they’re not lying.

They’re not saying anything that they’re that isn’t true. But the truth is that I want to get them

to a point where they don’t need me, or any kind of outside pressure to say, hey, keep doingthis. For them to keep doing it, because that just means they either a don’t understand it well

enough.

Yeah, or they don’t really like it. Or both, you know, I see the above.

[Dani]

Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. Because we always say this, like, we want to get them

to a place where they don’t need us. Certainly in terms of education, like, and we actually we do

get a lot of people I feel like that come to us and they know what to do.

Like they were very lucky that I feel like most of our audience is like pretty savvy to a lot of the

things.

[Sawyer]

And I don’t think that’s I think that’s I think that’s you guys investing in developing the kind of

relationships with people who don’t want a quick fix, but they know like what you offer and why

it’s special. So give yourself some credit there.

[Dani]

But, you know, the accountability piece, I feel like what you said, like the second one, like, or

they just don’t like it, I think there’s actually a fair number of folks. And I don’t, I actually don’t

see a problem with that, honestly, because there’s lots of things I don’t like to do, but I just do

them because I know they’re good for me. Like, yeah, I don’t and I don’t think anybody enjoys

brushing their teeth.

Like we all enjoy having nice teeth, but the act of actually brushing your teeth, like no one’s like,

yay. But we do it because it’s like, it’s good for us. And we’re grownups.

So I feel like if the accountability piece is the big piece, and they want that for a longer term,

then I guess I don’t really see an issue with that. But it would be like, if you’re just giving

someone like the plan, but not explaining it to them, and that’s why they need you, then I feel

like that is skeezy.

[Sawyer]

Yeah. I, it’s so interesting, because I often go back and forth in my mind about how much

somebody needs to like something, because everybody’s always praised me for my discipline

throughout my life. But I’m like, I like this stuff.

Like, I don’t, I don’t know how to explain it. It’s not like brushing my teeth for me. I actually

enjoy going to the gym most of the time.

But then again, there’s some movements that I would rather kill myself than do. And then I, so Iprogram around them, because I know how to do that. But at the same time, there’s still stuff

that I don’t like in each day sometimes.

So it’s like, I don’t know, I think I do have a certain amount. And I think everybody has a certain

amount of resilience to doing stuff they don’t like, like brushing the example, because brushing

your teeth is such a small, quick thing. And it’s like, the benefits are so huge.

It’s like why you’d be crazy not to. That’s kind of how I want lifting to feel for people. Like, I want

them to feel like, okay, there’s some stuff in here that I, it’s not my favorite.

But for the most part, I enjoy this. And same with nutrition. Like I want, I want to get them and

maybe that’s unrealistic for some people.

Some people maybe just hate the routine of anything.

[Dani]

I’m trying to, I’m thinking about, I know this is like way off topic, but I’m really enjoying the

conversation. So I’m gonna, let’s keep going with it. I do feel like there are some people that are

just never going to love lifting.

But I still think, I still think everybody should be doing some resistance training, even if they

don’t like it. Just like there’s some people that are never going to love vegetables, but like too

bad, suck it up, eat some vegetables. You’re a grown up.

So I think then it all comes down to like minimum effective dose.

[Sawyer]

I think I do gravitate towards that. I’m always teaching people about how to be more efficient

with their training. And I personally enjoy that too.

So it’s like, that’s another aspect of like, if you don’t have to do 20 sets of quads to grow them a

week, it’s like, that’s, you know, you’re going to have a better time. But yeah, it’s, it’s so hard

because as much as I try to put myself in other people’s shoes as an empathetic coach and

trying to wrap my head around where their brain is at, I’ve only ever been in this body and I’ve

only ever had my brain. And so at the end of the day, I’m never really, really going to know what

it feels like to be them and how hard it is for them to get themselves to do things.

So I do think there’s a place for some people who would need accountability, especially to get

to a certain level. I think everybody that’s an Olympic athlete has a coach for a reason, right? It’s

hard to get to that level and sustain it.

Like you’re pushing yourself in so many ways. For most people, I think it’s a toss up whether

they need a coach all the time or not. I personally don’t feel like I need one.Like I’m pretty on top of it and I actually enjoy this stuff, but I can see there being a lot of

subsects of the population that, you know, in order to get what they want, they need a little bit

of that extra oomph and a little bit more logistics, you know what I mean?

[Dani]

So I don’t know. They don’t want to have to say to somebody every week, like, Hey, I didn’t do it.

I didn’t do this stuff.

So like knowing they have to say something to somebody, I think, I think for some people that

in and of itself can be really, really helpful. It’s just something I’ve been thinking about more

and more lately is like, you know, some of the athletes I work with, I’ve worked with them for

years and they know what to do. Like they know, they know, they know as much as I do at this

point, like, because we’ve been working together for so long.

But the accountability piece is like the anchor for them. Like that weekly, the time they take

every week to sit down and think about, okay, how did this week go? Like, how could I put it in

the words, how this week went?

I don’t know. It’s just, it’s a really interesting thing to think about, I think.

[Sawyer]

I don’t have an answer.

[Dani]

I don’t think there is an answer, but.

[Sawyer]

Yeah. I just think we have to believe people that they know what’s best for them. And if they,

they want you around as their coach and they think I’m getting benefit from this, you can’t just

be like, nah, you don’t need me.

Like, I know what you need more than you do. Like that’s kind of, you know, you’re, you’re kind

of infantilizing them because you’re like saying, I know better than you, what you need for you.

Yeah.

Which is just not true. It’s like, people know at a certain point when they’ve achieved a lot with

you and they’re like, I’ve tried it without, I’ve tried it with, I’m gonna go with, with. And you’re

like, okay.

[Dani]

And some people, I think, just want to outsource the thinking sometimes. Like, I mean, if you

got it like that, then you want to outsource the thinking. Like, I guess that’s fine too.[Sawyer]

And, and busy people. I can see like, you know, having, needing a time for reflection, like you

were saying, like they don’t really make time for that. So having a schedule thing on a schedule

that somebody is holding them accountable for that they’re paying for.

[Dani]

I think that’s why I go to therapy. Honestly, I don’t feel like there’s any big thing that I’m like

working on or like, I don’t feel like, oh, I got to get in there so I can process this trauma this

week. I just, if I didn’t have an hour that I had to show up and talk to somebody about this stuff,

I don’t think I would like at all.

And then who knows what kind of mess I’d be in eventually.

[Sawyer]

You’re kind of, you’re taking an inventory. You’re saying, well, how am I feeling this week? How

am I feeling lately?

Let me make space for that. Because you know, who knows if, and maybe there’ve been other

parts of your life where seasons of your life where you’re like, you didn’t do that. And it all kind

of just the, the damn broke at some point.

And you’re like, wow, well there’s a lot of shit I haven’t been dealing with. So you on balance,

even if you, if you don’t consciously know it, you’re like, this is a good thing. I’m going to keep,

I’m going to keep doing this every week.

And it helps you. Yeah.

[Dani]

I joke that I just like having one retainer. Like, I don’t really need to see you, but I’m just going

to keep you on retainer. Okay.

[Sawyer]

No, you know, this, this conversations, I know we went off topic a little bit, but it’s, it’s cathartic

for me too, because as a coach, I never want to be, I care about people so much that I don’t

ever want them to feel like they have to be with me, or I would be mad or that I feel like they

need me a hundred percent. I want to listen to them and what they feel like it’s helpful. And so,

um, you know, and some people are just afraid of the conversation of like, I don’t really feel like

I’m benefiting from coaching anymore.

And I want people to feel comfortable to say that to me too, like, like above all else. And I’ve

showed shared this with you before. I want people to feel like they can trust me to say anythingthat they really feel and that I will not fly off the handle.

I will sit with them and figure it out with them. And that we will come to a conclusion that

makes sense for all parties. You know what I mean?

[Dani]

So that’s part of what makes coaching so different than just personal training.

[Sawyer]

Yeah.

[Dani]

Yeah. It really is all about like the relationship, I think. Yeah.

[Sawyer]

No, I will, I will protect that trust with my life. I don’t, I don’t, it’s not something I take lightly

because the second you show somebody that they’re a number to you or that they don’t matter

to you or their feelings are getting overblown. You know, I mean, some people will, will believe

you for a while.

They’ll be like, Oh yeah, I am being too sensitive about this. Oh, yeah. So I need to just shut up

and listen or shut up and do the work.

But eventually people understand when they’re being belittled or when they’re being ignored.

And when that happens, they’re going to be really mad. And then understandably, so just like in

any relationship when you’re not being listened to.

So it’s very important to me that people feel heard, but that I’m also communicating to them

what needs to happen in order for them to get their goals. Cause that’s, if I’m not sharing that.

[Dani]

And sometimes those are really hard. I find sometimes those are really hard conversations to

have. I’ve had a few clients that somehow, somehow they got it somewhere in the chain of

them becoming my client.

There was some miscommunication that some kind of ridiculous goal was possible in a

ridiculous timeframe. And having to sit there and like, look at what they had potentially planned

as a goal and be like this, here’s what it would take to make this happen. And I’m not willing to

do that with you because it’s like, it’s downright dangerous and here are all the potential

consequences.

Here’s some different ways we can do it. Maybe we can change the date of the goal that youhave here. Those are very challenging conversations and it doesn’t happen that often.

I think people have a better grasp on what is and isn’t realistic these days, but still occasionally,

you know, you will get somebody that wants to lose like 30 pounds in two months and

somehow they got it in their head that they could actually do that and it’s not going to happen.

[Sawyer]

And to bring this full circle, I think like with the cheat meal conversation, if people are saying,

Hey, I feel like I need to have a cheat meal. And I’m like, I can see that you’re like, I want to

validate your feelings. Like you feel like it’s a, it’s not a big deal to have this thing where you let

loose a little bit.

Right. But I’m also going to show you the reality of what that’s doing to your timeline or doing

to your, your physiological results, because that’s ultimately what I’m responsible for. So I’m

just going to say, I’m always going to hold space for people emotionally, but I’m also going to

encourage them and point them towards the reality of the situation.

Like in terms of what the data is showing, they’re, they’re heading towards or what they’re

accomplishing. So yeah. So, so with the, with the cheat meal conversation, free meal

conversation, if that free meal is, is unscheduled, unplanned is causing them to not be able to

reliably say they’re, they’re heading towards their goals.

I will be honest with them about that. And then we’ll try to formulate new ways of doing things

that aren’t quite as unrestricted, or maybe we do a period of time, like a maintenance phase

where they allow themselves to diet recover, because most of the time, if people feel like they

need a cheat free meal, and they are unable to say no to themselves in certain situations,

they’re either being too aggressive in their calorie deficit that they’re trying to go for in the

timeline they’re trying to achieve it on, or they’re trying to stay in that too long for them to like

physiologically just be comfortable enough to do.

And so they’re falling short and then they’re saying, Oh, it’s okay. Or, Oh, I had to cheat me on

the worst, whatever their, their emotional responses. My, my response is going to be say, say

it’s okay.

Here are the options we can do, because this isn’t going to work. If we just keep trying to

pressure you and you keep falling short every time, that’s just not going to be a good, right.

[Dani]

That’s not going to feel good at all. Yeah. Um, so towards the beginning, I had mentioned like, I

have some clients that have free meals in their program.

So I wanted to talk a little bit about like instances where I do find them to be really helpful.

[Sawyer]That’s a good idea. Yeah.

[Dani]

So I have one client who is a competitor. She’s a bodybuilding competitor. Uh, we’ve worked

together on and off, I think since like 2017 or something like that when she competes and when

she competes, she wants a meal plan.

That’s what she wants. She’s a registered dietitian. She’s a smart lady.

Uh, she wants a meal plan and I don’t usually do that with my, uh, clients, uh, unless they,

unless that’s like, if that’s really what they want, if they’ve shown that this isn’t going to be like a

disaster for them. So she has a meal plan. And because of that, uh, she does often have one

free meal a week in her program leading up to it, there’s guardrails on the free meal so that it

doesn’t just turn into my free meal, like a binge, you know what I mean?

Um, and if, if the free meal is starting to get a little bit like iffy, like that’s a little bit bigger than,

than normal, then we will, we’ll have a conversation about it, but it helps her stay. Uh, it helps

her stay compliant. The other, you know, yeah, 35 meals or whatever of the week.

And then she’s also one of my best clients at coming out of competition prep. Like she’s able to

go back to her just like normal life and normal way of eating pretty quickly without any mental

like muck that happens to a lot of people.

[Sawyer]

You know, what’s interesting about that is, and I’m glad you shared that is because a lot of that

is just you learning each other. Like she’s learning about the physiological changes she can

expect and the tools that you can use from you. And you’re learning about her and her body

and her brain and how they work.

And that takes time. Like as much as we want to say, we can help people right away. It takes

time to figure people out.

And so I’m always reticent to say like, I can get you this by this day, because some people are

more of a puzzle. Some people have more learning to do, you know what I mean? And so it’s, I,

I, what I always tell people is like, look, just, just be the annoying kid in class who raises their

hand to ask questions all the time.

Because the more you do that, the more I’m going to get an idea of how your, where your head

is at. And the more you’re going to get an idea of what you need to know. The more constantly

we communicate and talk about stuff that really needs to happen, the sooner we can start to

create an understanding where you understand the logistics and the tools, and I understand

you.

And then we really hone in on that thing that works for you. Absolutely.[Dani]

I would rather a client talk to me too much than not enough any day. The clients that don’t talk

to you enough, that don’t ask the questions, that don’t give you feedback. Oh yeah.

You’re, you’re left working with like nothing. You’re like, okay, I guess, you know, you’re, this is

what you get out. You’re just going to be a formula.

Like it’s going to be a formula on paper. Cause everybody starts at a formula. And then that

formula kind of changes as you get to learn about somebody, but if they’re not giving you

anything back that one, that’s the trick.

Those are, those are my hardest clients.

[Sawyer]

And it’s not even, I completely a thousand percent agree. I’m emphatically agree with that. And

I think that that’s why I think people overestimate the importance of like the perfect program

and, and, and like, in terms of like physiological optimization, because you can build muscle and

lose fat doing a lot of different things, a lot of different protocols.

It’s really about learning yourself and applying the tools that make sense to that. And so my job

is really to match. It’s like a matching game.

We’re on the right-hand column, we’ve got the person and all their characteristics. And then on

the left-hand column, we’ve got all these different tools we can choose from. And we’re trying

to draw lines and we say, Oh, that one didn’t work.

Cross that one. And then eventually you find like a, just the right combo. Like with your client

example, you just gave those perfect.

Like she needs a meal plan. Like I never would’ve thought of that, but if she tells you or

eventually get to the point where she’s like, you know, it’d be easy if you just told me what to

eat. And you were like, Oh, all right, let’s try it.

You know, make sense for your, this characteristic and that one. And you’ve done it and you’ve

been doing it for years, I assume. So it’s like.

[Dani]

Yeah. And if she gets sick of something in the meal plan, she’s like, Hey, if I have to eat this one

more day, I’m going to lose it. Then I’m like, okay, we’ll make a different meal.

Cause there was nothing magic about this meal in the first place. It just worked.

[Sawyer]You took out that you realized for her at some point or did, or you both did that the mental

work of making that decision of what to eat was the bigger obstacle. Yeah.

[Dani]

And, and plugging food in like she, no, she doesn’t want to do it. Not at all. And like I said, she’s

a registered dietitian.

Like there’s, there’s stuff she knows about nutrition that I will never know. Um, but this is, this is

what works for her. So, um, some other people that I have free meals with are the people who

are the opposite actually of this client.

And they are obsessed with tracking and knowing every little morsel of everything they eat

their free meal is less about, um, having something that’s off of a meal plan because they’re

already using a flexible approach, but it’s only flexible as much as they can track it to the gram.

So it’s basically, it’s like an untracked meal. And that’s incredibly anxiety inducing for a certain

type of person.

And that is why we do it. So they can learn to listen to their body again, a little bit instead of just

relying on the numbers.

[Sawyer]

Yeah. That’s when I, I lean more in that direction too. And I, you know, it’s funny because you,

you take the approach of saying, Hey, you got to take a free meal and you’re going to, that’s

going to force you to deal with the feelings you’re feeling.

You’re going to learn from it. I, I sometimes just let life do that because they go on vacation.

They take, you know, they mean they do, they travel, they do things that mean that they’re not

going to be able to track everything to the gram.

And so, and, and all I have to do in that case is reassure them like, Hey, you’re, you’re the

ballpark, you’re doing a good job. You’re, you’re still on track physiologically. I think I find that

for that type of, well, for any, most types of people, as long as you can prove to them that

they’re still making beneficial psychological changes, they will chill out about pretty much every

neurosis that they have, or they used to have because most of the time when it comes down to,

and this is true for me for sure, is the thing that causes the most anxiety is not knowing what

works. That’s the, that’s the big thing.

So my whole job is saying, Hey, from my perspective, looking at all the data things we’re

tracking, this is working. This is not this, you know what I mean? And then kind of just

reorganizing things to say, Hey, keep doing this.

Let’s change this.

[Dani]Right. Totally. So I have a client that years ago, she wants to build muscle, but like everybody

that wants to build muscle doesn’t love seeing the scale go up.

And we were gaining and didn’t get to what I would have thought would have been like the top

end of a happy place. We got to like the middle of that. She kind of started to like freak out, not,

not be so totally comfortable anymore.

And even though I thought we could have pushed, we could have pushed it further. Definitely.

Like just from a physiological standpoint, no question.

Psychologically, we did a mini cut so she could see like, Hey, let’s look when we decide to turn

this around, it’s going to work. Like, let’s just, let me just prove that to you for the next eight

weeks. And we got there and it was like total buy-in after that to be able to do the full, to

commit to the, to commit fully to the build and see, go into uncharted territory for the first time

ever, because yes, the anxiety comes from not knowing what’s going to happen.

And sometimes it feels like you got to take a step, two steps back, wait, one step forward. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Sometimes it feels like you got to move backwards to move forward, but that moving

backwards part is really scary for a lot of people. And the free meals are an example of that. So

you said like, you kind of let life do that because totally life is going to do that.

So for my clients that are really kind of neurotic about this, the free meals are like practice for

what life is going to do to them eventually anyway. So next time it happens, they don’t feel so

completely out of their element. Like they kind of, we’ve practiced this, we’ve done a dry run of

this before and they have an idea of how to approach it going forward without just totally flying

off the handle.

[Sawyer]

Yeah. I love that. I think it’s so easy to say these things and think, yeah, well, that makes sense.

But to be doing this stuff in practice and feeling out a person and what they need

psychologically versus what they could benefit from physiologically and what they say they

want is such an art because you really have to get a good read on a person. Are they going to

be okay to keep pushing even though they say they can? Are they starting to crack?

Are they trying to put on a brave face for you because they just want you to be proud of them

or they want to do it anyway and they’re kind of pushing closer and closer to the edge? Or is it

somebody that needs a little push? You know what I mean?

So it’s one thing to say like, yeah, sometimes this is the case, sometimes that is the case, but

like to know when to apply it is such an art form. And I think it’s really cool that you and just

people who care about people in this profession will just inherently get better at this because Ifind that the people who are not so good at this profession and what I started out by doing,

which was learning as much as you could about the physiological and ignoring the

psychological because you’re like, well, people are going to have to push through that, you

know, whatever.

[Dani]

Like if they just got to follow the program, if they just follow the program, they’ll get results.

Like I did the same thing. I’ve actually apologized to some of my clients like 15 years ago,

because we’re still really good friends.

And I’m just like, they got great results, but like, man, there were better ways. There were

better ways. But you know, we’re always still learning and growing.

And maybe in 10 years, I’ll say like, oops, sorry, guys, I didn’t know this then about something

that I’m doing right now. Like, hopefully, hopefully, I’ll know something more in 10 years than I

know now.

[Sawyer]

I mean, the nature of the beast is that you start out being very gung ho for like one side, and

then you just kind of get more balanced overall. But I think it’s really, I mean, two things. It’s

testament to that you didn’t mess up too bad, because you’re still friends with these people.

And, and two is that, yeah, like becoming more even handed and like understanding of people

is just like, is just testament to that the fact that you care. And I think that, yeah, so it’s, I guess

we could turn this into a cautionary tale, too, of like, if people encounter coaches who are just

saying, like, they’re talking to them about how they feel, you’re talking to a coach about how

you feel about something. And they reply with only, well, physiologically, this is what needs to

happen.

Yeah, they are, they are bulldozing you make no mistake, they’re gaslighting you. Yeah,

thinking you shouldn’t feel this way. And that if you want the results, you have to 100% always

go for this.

I find that that addressing somebody how they feel first, is a really good way to make sure that

you know, that they know that they’ve been heard. And that also there’s this other thing you’re

responsible for, which is their results. And so we got to try to match the two up.

Because you cannot just force them into something that is not, it’s just not gonna be

sustainable. If they’re like, okay, I’m gaining weight, but I just feel terrible all the time. Yeah.

And I don’t think I can do it without being yelled at every week. Right? That’s, that’s not growth.

That’s just you’re scaring them into Yeah.[Dani]

Yeah, I have this. Well, it’s not my saying, I don’t know where it came from. But I always think

about it when I meet some of these coaches that it’s just like, this is the program, you’ll do the

program, the end.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail. And that’s

really what it is. It’s like just having more tools, like not just from a coaching perspective, but

like teaching the client more tools because their life can change to like, what works now might

not work in a different scenario with a different job, or maybe they have a kid or move or

something and tools got to change.

[Sawyer]

So Oh, big time. I have a client who just just had a baby. And it’s changed the game completely.

But the good news is that we have a very strong relationship. So we’re figuring out the new

game plan. Baby alone, you know what I mean?

So it’s Yeah, yeah, you never can really completely hang up the work.

[Dani]

Yeah, that was my biggest, my biggest shock of my life was when the kids came here overnight.

And like over the coming months, realizing like, holy shit, this is what my clients have been

talking about. Because, you know, empathetic and coming up with a plan and all of that.

But in the back of my mind, there’s still a part of me that’s like, I get that it’s hard, but you got

to do like, you’ve got to work to get the results. And then I had Daisy and Desmond five

months, two years, and I was just like, I can’t, like, I can’t, I can’t do it. I can’t do it.

There is no time I cannot do it. What? Like, this is my livelihood.

And I can’t get my training in. Holy shit. It was like, the biggest growth as a coach for me ever,

because I felt like I had fresh eyes on everything going.

[Sawyer]

So that’s so funny.

[Dani]

Wow, it’s not not a good time. Not a good time.

[Sawyer]

You grew, I mean, you grew out of it. And you still I mean, you’ve managed to maintain andkeep progressing in your training and everything.

[Dani]

It’s just that it was it helped me learn how much less you actually have to do to maintain your

results than you think. So there was that too.

[Sawyer]

That’s a topic for another day that we could go over. I love that. And getting efficient with

workouts.

And instead of doing more set, that’s the other thing. I think we’ve talked about touchdown in

the past is that people will throw a whole bunch of sets of people can stick to it. Some people

can’t.

They don’t really care. No, it’s gonna work. And like, it takes more time to like, teach people how

to push up the intensity, or get rid of, you know, other muscles helping things out.

[Dani]

Yeah, some people’s joints can handle that stuff. Some people’s can’t like again. Yeah, true.

Yeah. You guys want to hear about that? Let us know.

[Sawyer]

Record an episode. Leave a comment on the YouTube video if you guys want to hear about

efficient training and also how much over programming we see. Yeah, maybe we could talk

about.

[Dani]

Yeah, a lot. All right. Well, if you guys are interested in coaching, definitely all the links are in the

show notes or on the description on the YouTube video down below.

Just fill out a coaching assessment and you will hear back from one of us within a business day.

We’re always excited to be working with new people. Feel free to follow us on Facebook,

Instagram, YouTube.

Obviously, if you’re here on YouTube, we have two channels now. That’s crazy. I think that’s it.

That’s all I’ve got. If you’re not following Sawyer already, it’s Sawyer Boy Fitness Coaching.

[Sawyer]

Yeah.[Dani]

Okay. I get yours and Ben’s wrong every single time.

[Sawyer]

I was like, I was thinking about changing it. And then I was like, Oh, that’d be so mean to do to

people. People just got it.

You know what I mean?

[Dani]

All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. My name is Dani.

[Sawyer]

And I’m Sawyer.

[Dani]

And we’ll talk to you soon.